Consequences and saying sorry for 'bad' behaviour

Yes she is. She is of the Dan Hughes school of thought, much of which I agree with, Empathy, playfulness acceptance etc Time in rather than Time out. She has not met the children but prefers to work with us .

I recall from some Dan Hughes training, that the therapy approach with traumatised children is "connection before correction". They talk about how the correction as you mention in your first post can cause shame for some children. And, also how it doesn't get to the understanding of what is going on for the child. However, they also talked about how there may need to be consequences sometimes although I think that might depend on what the behaviour is/age of child. Also, with Dan Hughes therapy, therapists do focus on working with the parents/carers in the first instance. With young children, saying sorry isn't always meaningful.

Its a tough call, because I think the Dan Hughes approach really makes sense for traumatised children/works. But you have clearly had progress with asking your LOs to say sorry.

Minnie x

I think I'd pretty much go along with the therapist. I do ask that my children apologise to each other when they've had a falling out BUT they're now 12, 9 and 8 and their understanding of right and wrong is more developed. I think at 4 and 3 they're really too young to understand and they're not really saying it because they mean it but because you're telling them to. Until they're old enough to get cause and effect then I'm not sure that there's any value in insisting on an apology. I think it's far better to look to the underlying reasons - why the jealousy and address that.

Thanks everyone...its hard so few weeks in to contemplate changing the routine....both Lapwing and Peewit seem to be responding positively to our bounderies even today for the first time said sorry to each other and hugged each other without prompting... peewit said....I shared today mummy without you asking. I still like the saying sorry thing...but I will hear out our therapist this week and do as she said and report back!

We do reparation too, Starlet struggles with saying sorry although I do insist on it and she is getting better. However, once she has calmed down she likes writing notes or drawing pictures for people, sometimes directly saying sorry, other times just to do something nice. I don't put in consequences for not doing the reparation bit, I just explain that I think X must be really sad and this would make them feel better.

The jury is out for me on consequences, I am a bit up and down with them... I am learning to tell when Starlet is being naughty just to test and when it's a genuine fear response, and I am reacting differently.

My DD couldn't cope with saying sorry at the time it would just escalate things further
I do find the whole sorry thing a little strange, it is often meaningless (especially politicians caught out cheating the system)
I try to move on quickly from the event and talk about it later. DD is often able to make a card or do something later

We don't always use the word sorry, but try to do 3 stage

1- acknowledge what the feeling is and speculate why they might be feeling that way

2- get them in a very simple way to empathise with the other person

3- do something kind to make amends

My dds are 3 and 2 and often it's 50/50 who's "at fault"
So we sit down in a triangle I hold both of their hands and do each step with each of them in turn

It's taken a while but they now hug or a gentle strike or pass a toy back at the end

Sometimes ways of being take a while to fall into place esp with v Los, just keep modeling and gently reinforcing and see where you get to

Thank you. you're right - It is difficult..It feels almost counter intuitive not to ask them to apologise or put in consequences - Therapist is coming tomorrow so I will go through it again with her, to try and fully understand what she wants us to do.

kstar, I totally understand what you're saying, but you have to let that go. This is about healing the deepest most damaged part of your child, the rest has to go fiddle whilst you do that. If the consequences compromise your relationship building activity, then they are frankly a waste of time. What other people think has to slip way down your priorities. IT's hard not to be embarrassed when you're sitting on a writhing, spitting teenager who wants to knock you out, but I have done that, in the full glare of a camp, and survived! The truth is, this is a big deal and what other people think of your parenting is not. x

she also said keeping them feeling safe and contained is as important as anything...I think lapwing likes my rules amd consistent consequences....I think she feels contained by it.. she knows what is going to happen....even if she doesn't fully understand it..her world is predictable.

It is so difficult. tonight Peewit furious that Lapwing had scribbled on his drawing punched her on the head ( usually it is the other way round...lapwing hitting peewit) I am sorry to say I wasn't very therapeutic but was cross and even my cross face was enough to send peewit into tears...lapwing had scribbled on his drawing which he believed was the whole cause of the trauma and why wasn't she be told off. ... I am afraid I insisted that Peewit said sorry to Lapwing.. as he sobbed under his blanket and sat forlornly on the stairs. In the meantime Lapwing...joyous that her brother was being 'told off' was happily skipping around mummy....hmmmmmmmm. In the end peewit said sorry to Lapwing..but for the first time ever refused to give me a kiss at bed time.. had I let him down..... I don't know....

I find what kstar say really interesting, about teaching our kids to be socially acceptable and I think we kind of have to, even if they don't mean or understand it otherwise people will just think they are rude and will avoid them.

I was brought up to say please and thank you, sorry, etc and it became an automatic default with me, like when someone bumps into me in the street, I will automatically say sorry, even if I'm not the one who did the bumping, it's a default setting that I can't change and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

I brought my DD's up the same way from when they were very little, and everyone, school included says what a pleasure it is that my children have such lovely manners. Teachers have actually thanked me at parent teacher meetings, which personally I found quite sad as I hadn't realise how "rude" most children are these days and I'm not talking about adopted children, just children in general.

Also we spend a lot of time in France and DD's used to go to a summer camp in our village. I was always really surprised that the french kids never said thank you. For example when the adult workers were dishing out cake and drinks, my DD's were the only ones who said "Merci" unprompted by me, it was their natural default to say thank you when someone gave them something. None of the french kids said anything, just took that cake and walked off with it.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I do think manners are important and I think it might be a British/Irish thing as a good friend of mine who is Dutch and lived here for 10 years, said to me that when she moved back to live in Holland, the teachers in school commented on her children's lovely manners and said how delightful they were, having lived and gone to school here for 8 years (friend said Dutch children never say thanks either).


Don't think manner are a bad thing at all.
 

I don't think children learn by being told
If you want them to learn please and thank you go overboard on saying it yourself. You could bump into them slightly several times a day and say sorry, say please for every little thing
eventually they will pick up on it and start using please and thank you
If its made into a big issue - either by praise or telling off- it is in danger of becoming a battle ground or another button they can use to drive you crazy!
try not to stress and model the behaviour you would like
I have developed a thick skin and care much less about what others think

Absolutely Tokoloshe, I agree. I am learning to tell the difference seven months in between genuine emotional meltdown and just naughtiness, and I adapt what I say and do accordingly. We also try and talk later about feelings all round - how she felt and why, how I felt and why, how her behaviour made other people feel etc.