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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 16, 2013 11:17:17 GMT
I wondered if anyone had any advice, Princess Lollipop totally over reacts sometimes and gets extremely angry. For example yesterday walking home from school with her best friend she pushed him and he fell over and hurt himself. We told her off and asked her to say sorry, instead she started to shout insults at both us and best friend, hit and kicked me and her Dad and was generally obnoxious. After best friend had gone I tried talking to her about all of this and said that best friend might not want to play with her on Monday as she had been so mean. She started to sob and was extremely upset and grudgingly agreed to send him a sorry message. Other times if she sees someone get hurt and cry she will get angry and call them babies, or if she makes a mistake with her reading book she will shoot and scream that she can't do it and the book is stupid. She is also very controlling and has mega tantrums if she doesn't get her own way, she can really hurt her brother if he is the one thwarting her. Mostly this behaviour is at home and the majority of the violence is directed at me, followed by her brother, rarely at her Dad and even less at her big sisters. The behaviour has improved by being very firm, reminding her that Mummy and Daddy are in charge and by having a reward chart, but not as much as I'd like!
Any ideas anyone??
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Post by esty (archive) on Nov 16, 2013 15:12:24 GMT
How old is she?
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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 16, 2013 15:40:09 GMT
She's 4, going on 14 lol x
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Post by sooz on Nov 16, 2013 15:57:19 GMT
Sounds very avoidant to me. My ds has had awful trouble accepting responsibility for anything, and will kick off rather than face up to his actions. Same goes for not being able to do things. He cannot handle the shame and goes to huge lengths to distract, change the subject, put blame elsewhere.
Trying to make her say sorry will not help, even though it feels like that it totally the right thing to do.
It's a long hard slog to get them to understand consequences of their actions, I've found it's helped somewhat to point out how ds feels if he gets hurt by someone else and just to remind him of that if he then hurts someone else. For example 'do you remember how it felt when x pushed you over, do you think that maybe y feels like that now? Did it help when x said sorry to you?
My ds gets so angry if he accidentally stubs his toe or something, and I have blamed the thing he's stubbed his toe on before now, told it off and pretended it's saying sorry. I can usually get him to raise a smile at that, as well as 'teaching' him that sometimes a sorry can help.
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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 16, 2013 16:14:27 GMT
Thanks sooz, I agree the saying sorry isn't getting us anywhere, it just winds her up so much more and you can tell she doesn't mean it  We do try to help her learn empathy, and that is when she breaks down into huge sobs I like your idea of making the door/wall etc say sorry for hurting her, maybe humour will get through to her!?! X |
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Post by esty (archive) on Nov 16, 2013 17:03:43 GMT
Have you tried breaking up activities in to very small chunks and stating very clearly what you expect of her before each bit and then constantly praising that bit before explaining the next bit? She sounds very like youngest son when he first arrived, lots of anger and controlling everything. I stuck to guns explaining required behavior and wouldn't move to do anything unless required behavior was achieved. Required behavior would always be achievable even though it often took rages and aggression. I verbally explained regularly that I was the parent/mum and to keep him safe I had to do xyz and would expect him to do abc. I set up lots of small activities where it didn't matter if it took all day to achieve it we would. Now we rarely get controlling and mostly we can be fairly softly softly though it has taken 18 months to achieve this. This was all within doing all the sorts of theraplay activities too. Not easy though and often found it almost impossible to be that patient at times.
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Post by esty (archive) on Nov 16, 2013 17:05:29 GMT
When I say activities I mean things like getting in the van, going out for the day, choosing what we were going to watch on Telly, going to bed, etc
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Post by donatella on Nov 16, 2013 17:14:51 GMT
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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 16, 2013 17:55:32 GMT
Have you tried breaking up activities in to very small chunks and stating very clearly what you expect of her before each bit and then constantly praising that bit before explaining the next bit? She sounds very like youngest son when he first arrived, lots of anger and controlling everything. I stuck to guns explaining required behavior and wouldn't move to do anything unless required behavior was achieved. Required behavior would always be achievable even though it often took rages and aggression. I verbally explained regularly that I was the parent/mum and to keep him safe I had to do xyz and would expect him to do abc. I set up lots of small activities where it didn't matter if it took all day to achieve it we would. Now we rarely get controlling and mostly we can be fairly softly softly though it has taken 18 months to achieve this. This was all within doing all the sorts of theraplay activities too. Not easy though and often found it almost impossible to be that patient at times. That's a really good strategy esty, thank you  When I'm being really patient and take things much more slowly she does respond better. And when she is given sufficient warning that something is going to change, e.g.it's big brothers turn to watch tv when this programme has finished. I just need to find where to buy stocks of patience... X |
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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 16, 2013 18:04:34 GMT
Thank you donatella, that first link was really helpful in explaining what is going on for Princess Lollipop. The second link was a pdf download and wouldn't work for me. She does actually respond very well to reward charts most of the time, however it can all fall apart when she gets caught up in a "shame rage" I'm probably going to keep up with the chart, but use other techniques, like the reconnecting when she is trading. Wish me luck, I'm probably going to need it!! X |
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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 16, 2013 18:19:24 GMT
LO has only just stopped getting angry if she makes a mistake e.g. writing - until a couple of months ago if she started trying to write or draw I dreaded it, because within a minute or two she would be screwing up the paper, trying again and scribbling with frustration, just getting more and more wound up and angry. It turns out her previous carer (extended family member) would make her practice writing her name, and if she made a mistake would hit her with a wooden spoon Luckily she had a lovely and loving big sister and they united against previous carer, and she was placed with me before it went on too long... But in different circumstances it could have become so ingrained so young she wouldn't have been able to understand how her experiences affected her feelings. Sadly this does come from somewhere. Humour is great, what also helped LO is her (adored!) big sister talking with her about it being OK to make mistakes, that Big Sis made loads of mistakes when she was little, it's just a matter of practice etc. And that she (big sis) loves her no matter what mistakes she makes. Her (understandable) ambivalence towards mother figures doesn't kick in with Big Sister. If Princess Lols has a good relationship with her big sisters, could they have some 'little chats' with her? It may be that her relationship with them is less complicated? Thanks tokoloshe Thank goodness your LO had such a great big sister to help and protect her. I don't know where this has come from as she's been with us since she was under a year old?!? She does have a lot less complicated relationship with her big sisters, and our eldest is very patient and has studied adoption and attachment issues, she's probably the best one to help with this. We do try and make sure both Littlies know we love them no matter what, but we have to keep repeating it all the time |
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Post by sooz on Nov 16, 2013 18:46:39 GMT
Tokoloshe makes a good point.
I frequently tell ds about all the things I did as a kid and the things I broke, mistakes I made, things I got wrong and we have a good giggle about it.
He's all wide eyed and asks me to tell him more. Lol
It's especially good if I get my parents involved as they can roll their eyes and say 'oh yes, she did that!' X
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Post by kstar on Nov 16, 2013 18:55:04 GMT
If I catch it in time with Starlet, I tend to jump in and mirror what she is doing and saying but in a really over the top way, using lots of silly facial expressions and humour. She often can't resist laughing, and we use the laughter as distraction. I sometimes, if it feels right, gently take the mick by saying things like "come on let's slam the door together, that's where we are going with this". If we are having a good day and I get the opportunity, I sometimes let her role play being the mummy and me being her, again with lots of giggling.
She also likes writing letters to say sorry to people or drawing them a picture - sometimes with no reference to what she did because that's too much, just a general making up thing - she can't say sorry or discuss with anyone but me what went wrong, but she likes being given a chance to put things right.
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connect4
Bronze Member
Married Adopter
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Post by connect4 on Nov 16, 2013 19:11:22 GMT
Hi Gertiesquidge,
well you could be describing our AD, when she came to live with us at four and half.
When the children first came to live with us our daughter was bossy aggressive violent and controlling. Rages always followed being checked or not getting her own way. We were advised by the social workers to be very very firm, very strict and totally in control. We were and things got very much worse. Discipline was almost impossible - certainly no learning was taking place and no evidence of her understanding of her impact on others. Life was a daily round of escalating conflict and screaming rages (and some of that was me!)
I know now that underneath this monster exterior is a very frightened, very sad, very angry, little girl who thinks she is a pile of carp and who recently has expressed suicidal ideation. She is actually extremely fragile.
I have found that I have to be very careful with my facial expression, body language, tone of voice and verbal content when disciplining her. In our case less is more and with a lot of gentle reassurance that she has not done a terrible thing, that it was just a small thing, that all children do, she will accept disciple more easily.
All children are different and respond to different approaches but I do think that traumatised children's egos are so damaged that the usual type of approach to disciple is just too harsh for them - they crumble under the weight of it. I know many would disagree with me, but that is my experience.
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connect4
Bronze Member
Married Adopter
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Post by connect4 on Nov 16, 2013 19:28:29 GMT
Sooz - love that, we do it too - tell them stories of all the 'naughty' things we did as children and how cross our parents were. We have a good laugh ant it takes the drama out of it and makes it 'normal'.
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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 16, 2013 22:17:53 GMT
Tokoloshe makes a good point. I frequently tell ds about all the things I did as a kid and the things I broke, mistakes I made, things I got wrong and we have a good giggle about it. He's all wide eyed and asks me to tell him more. Lol It's especially good if I get my parents involved as they can roll their eyes and say 'oh yes, she did that!' X That's a great idea, we've got a family wedding coming up st the end of the month so there will be plenty of time to spend with grandparents learning what a mischievous girl mummy was I might have to talk to mum and dad first as I don't want the Littlies getting too many new ideas lol |
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Post by sivier on Nov 16, 2013 22:24:17 GMT
This rings some bells with what's going on with my 4 year old too. Sometimes I say to her 'I think you'll say sorry in a little bit, probably' as she is usually unable to do it in the middle of her rage/tears (shame). She'll sometimes come to me a while after with a hug or a little drawing for me - her way of saying sorry. This has reminded me that recently she was asked to confess to a minor misdemeanour at school (it was obvious that it was her) and they said she wouldn't admit to it and got very very upset in the process of trying to get her to. Your post gertiesquidge has made me think I should perhaps talk to her teacher about how this kind of thing might affect her. Haven't got much to add to the very good advice/ideas you have been given here, hope they help.
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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 16, 2013 22:25:06 GMT
If I catch it in time with Starlet, I tend to jump in and mirror what she is doing and saying but in a really over the top way, using lots of silly facial expressions and humour. She often can't resist laughing, and we use the laughter as distraction. I sometimes, if it feels right, gently take the mick by saying things like "come on let's slam the door together, that's where we are going with this". If we are having a good day and I get the opportunity, I sometimes let her role play being the mummy and me being her, again with lots of giggling. She also likes writing letters to say sorry to people or drawing them a picture - sometimes with no reference to what she did because that's too much, just a general making up thing - she can't say sorry or discuss with anyone but me what went wrong, but she likes being given a chance to put things right. Hi kstar, Princess Lollipop won't allow any Mickey taking, so I'm not sure that would work tbh, but she might cope with role playing I'll have to give it a go. She is just learning to write and writing/drawing anything she can then put in an envelope is one of her favourite things to do (I have to hide envelopes as they disappear so fast). So writing a sorry letter might very well suit her and give her the chance to put things right, without all the screaming that goes with a verbal sorry. X |
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Post by damson on Nov 16, 2013 22:29:23 GMT
I'm with all those who say anger is easier than fear.
I used to read the 'my naughty little sister' books to my son as bedtime stories, and they are very good about how 4 year olds behave.
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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 16, 2013 22:37:20 GMT
Hi Gertiesquidge, well you could be describing our AD, when she came to live with us at four and half. When the children first came to live with us our daughter was bossy aggressive violent and controlling. Rages always followed being checked or not getting her own way. We were advised by the social workers to be very very firm, very strict and totally in control. We were and things got very much worse. Discipline was almost impossible - certainly no learning was taking place and no evidence of her understanding of her impact on others. Life was a daily round of escalating conflict and screaming rages (and some of that was me!) I know now that underneath this monster exterior is a very frightened, very sad, very angry, little girl who thinks she is a pile of carp and who recently has expressed suicidal ideation. She is actually extremely fragile. I have found that I have to be very careful with my facial expression, body language, tone of voice and verbal content when disciplining her. In our case less is more and with a lot of gentle reassurance that she has not done a terrible thing, that it was just a small thing, that all children do, she will accept disciple more easily. All children are different and respond to different approaches but I do think that traumatised children's egos are so damaged that the usual type of approach to disciple is just too harsh for them - they crumble under the weight of it. I know many would disagree with me, but that is my experience. Hi connect4, Our daughters do sound similar at this age, with sivier posting about her 4 year old being like this too, I wonder if it's an adopted child's developmental stage?! I think me and hubby are going to have to sit down and discuss all the advice and rethink how we deal with Princess Lollipops loss of control and rages. Your comment about fragile egos really hit home, if Daddy tells her off she just crumbles and is instantly heartbroken |
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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 16, 2013 22:39:57 GMT
I'm with all those who say anger is easier than fear. I used to read the 'my naughty little sister' books to my son as bedtime stories, and they are very good about how 4 year olds behave. Hi Damson, I used to love those books when I was little - I'll have to see if I've still got them, if not that's something else Father Christmas can put on his list |
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Post by damson on Nov 16, 2013 22:40:45 GMT
Will you be serving trifle at Christmas? LOL
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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 16, 2013 22:46:31 GMT
Sorry it's been a very long time since I was little, so I don't remember the trifle story??
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Post by damson on Nov 16, 2013 23:04:34 GMT
Have a look for the books, you'll find the trifle story. Defo one for our children. Reminds me of my friend who got sick of rationing easter eggs for her 2 ACs and let them eat as much as they wanted  |
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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 16, 2013 23:13:17 GMT
Hmm still not remembering the trifle story!! I'll have to spend tomorrow hunting through the bookcases and boxes of stored books to see if I can find them x |
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Post by sivier on Nov 17, 2013 19:33:04 GMT
Thanks tokolshe, that's a really useful link.
I do wonder whether part of it is a developmental stage as gertie says but it is so hard to tell with our LOs when there's much more in the mix. AD is coping well with many aspects of school but the low self-esteem and controlling behaviours are definitely evident.
Will look out for the 'naughty little sister' books, not heard of those!
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Post by gertiesquidge on Nov 17, 2013 19:37:37 GMT
Thanks tokolshe, that's a really useful link. I do wonder whether part of it is a developmental stage as gertie says but it is so hard to tell with our LOs when there's much more in the mix. AD is coping well with many aspects of school but the low self-esteem and controlling behaviours are definitely evident. Will look out for the 'naughty little sister' books, not heard of those! The naughty little sister books are really cheap on Amazon, I've just ordered a paperback containing all the books for less than £3 including postage!! X |
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Post by smileycat on Nov 17, 2013 20:03:57 GMT
I think I remember the trifle story- was it when my naughty little sister visited the old lady and pulled all the sugar decorations on the top of the cream??? Or was that a cake??!! Not sure!!
I actually logged on tonight because Potato is being so difficult right now- lots and lots of angry outbursts... hard, draining and like walking on egg shells every moment she's awake. As connect4 said Potato is v v v fragile and thinks she's rubbish at the moment. Her best friend emigrated a couple of months ago- big loss- and a couple of other things and boom volcano girl on my hands.
What works for us is if as soon as I can/ it's safe for me to do so- grabbing her and putting her in my lap and rocking and soothing her like a new born, saying in a coo-ing voice there there my little love Mummy's here it's all okay... little baby Potato didn't get enough cuddles as a baby I think actually right now you might be feeling sad/ tired/ hurt but that you are confused and your angry part switched on and told you to shout and yell instead.
When she kicked off on friday and I was able to help in this way her face changed as I was saying this and she looked up and smiled and said Mummy you've made me feel like a whole new person.... I then had to explain why I was crying- I wasn't sad I was happy (in an odd way!!)
Emotions are just too much sometimes.
Though the massive massive melt down she had over a reasonable no at the MIL's house today- well let's just say I considered posting in the good news section- it's the first time she's ever exploded in front of someone else usually she waits to do it over something else at home- however I must say looking on the bright side it was very educational for the MIL!!! Snort!!!! ;-)
Very hard, you're not alone :-(
Hugs,
SC x x
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Post by sivier on Nov 18, 2013 22:37:56 GMT
What an amazing thing for your AD to say to you smileycat |
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When I'm being really patient and take things much more slowly she does respond better. And when she is given sufficient warning that something is going to change, e.g.it's big brothers turn to watch tv when this programme has finished. 
