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Post by moo on May 21, 2022 7:10:00 GMT
Totally With Flutterby On This...
Alarm Bells.... Ss Seek Contact & Many Sib Meet Ups..... Box Ticking Excercises...
In My Exp This Causes Many Fallouts & Spiralling Behaviours For Sibs Once Back In Their New Forever Families.... Escalates Confusion As To Why Separated & Why Their Family Not As Preferable As Sibs Etc..... Usually Causes Many More Shame & Trauma Reactions Due To Anger Issues Re Split From Sib.... Fewer Meetups For Sibs To See Each Is O.K. Far Better Solution In My Exp.... Less Chance Of Trauma, More Chances For Bonding To New Family Without More Regular Constant Reminder & Distraction Of Anger/ Sorrow At Being Split Up.... Must Not Take Backward Steps Reminding Them They Have Been Split... Better To Say Need More Time To Assimilate New Family Bond... Let's Delay 2nd Meet Up Until Lo More Stable....Could Be A Year Or More.....
As Flutterby Says Be Aware Placing La Will Fudge Info Why Sibs Were Split.... Ask Many Many Q's All Seems Far Too Rushed Tbh...Sorry
Make Sure All Your Q's Are 100% Answered Be V Cautious xxx Remember They Will Probably Have Been Split Due To Extreme Re Traumatising Each Other.... They Were Probably Deemed Too Hard To Place Together xxx Splitting IMHO Rarely Happens Unless In These Circs..... xx
Xx Good Luck Sending Hugs xx
Xx moo ๐ฎ
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Post by mrsbear21 on May 21, 2022 9:20:07 GMT
So it's the LO we're linked with that is the one with the greater need. His needs are learning related. They have been upfront with that. That's why we want to see school and class teacher in person. And why we're not ruling out postponing/pulling out pre-Thursday.
And they were placed as a 3 last year, and that brokedown. The needs as a 3 were clearly too great and that is a big part of the rationale for the split.
I'm in no way underestimating the trauma and frankly mess created by that previous placement. They were there a week and were removed because one of the adopters lost his temper with LO and screamed at him in front of FC.
And I know you have to ask yourself what about LO induced that...... But that's why I want to speak to other adults who know LO. Teachers and sisters' parents have met him quite a bit.
And that's still only half of it. Because he may well be holding it all in with school and strangers.
It's all about getting as much info as possible and balancing it. We did get to speak to FC for about 4hrs without children's SWs (because they couldn't make the meeting!). She's had all 3 since they were removed. She's been a lone FC for over 20 years and struck me as very straight down the line. LO has attached very well to her (which in itself has to be very carefully thought about heading into placement). She didn't believe LO caused what happened at the last placement and nor has she ever felt pushed close to that reaction by any of the 3.
The other big reason for the split is LO was always the child blamed within birth family for everything. And older sister reverted to that pattern when the first adoption brokedown. I guess that is siblings impacting on each other. It's just more subtle than violence or sexualized behaviours etc (which we've seen on a lot of profiles) and the absence of phyiscally dangerous sibling behaviours is why they're so keen on contact.
Mr Bear and I are however very clear (and have said to SWs) that we will be very mindful about sibling contact. We will put a stop to anything that is not helping LO.
BTW I don't see any of your questions/comments as doom and gloom! We need our thinking pushing and testing. It's too big a decision to get lost in sentiment now. So keep challenging me. It's really helpful.
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Post by mrsbear21 on May 21, 2022 9:20:42 GMT
Sorry for the very long post! Can you tell I'm processing!!
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Post by moo on May 21, 2022 10:05:10 GMT
Great Mrs B, I Knew Deep Down You Would Take The Advice As Meant Honest Support xxx
Keep On Processing.... There Is No Such Thing As too Much?!!
What About The 3rd Sib??
Xx moo ๐ฎ
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Post by flutterby on May 21, 2022 11:55:09 GMT
MrsBear, I've been re-reading your post several times.
Agree with Moo, where is the third sibling?
Why did it seem to be ok for the children to be adopted as 3? Yet the adopter, despite having been vetted for months and found a great match for these children, lost it within a week? Either SS didn't do their matching too carefully (I guess there aren't too many who would adopt three in the first place) or the children have much higher needs than described in the CPR.
Now all of a sudden they need to be split because of blame games and learning difficulties?
Maybe, because the siblings had been told they were going to their forever home, they started recreating what went on in the birth home with the adoptive parents. With the result that the unsuspecting parents got drawn into these mind games without realising and then hey presto, LO get shouted at (blamed) again, like he would have been "at home".
With the result that kids are back with foster carer and are now being split up. A convenient scapegoat (the irony) has been found as to why the placement broke down so quickly.
So they were thriving in foster care and foster carer never had trouble managing them? Was it the in the children's best interest to be split up (more trauma) or should SS have realised in the first instance that long-term foster is the right place for the kids? I can't help but think their decisions were and are driven by money.
Also your potential little boy's learning needs are not instead of but in top of all his other issues, the extent of which are currently unknown to you.
What are his learning needs caused by? Genetics, substance abuse? How else has his brain been impacted?
It is no exaggeration to describe our children as brain damaged. Some of this may be reversible, but some of it may be organic and it is therefore vital to know what is what. What assessments have been done? Demand they need to be done and have this written into the support plan or demand they must be done pre-adoption.
Blame games (splitting/triangulation) by little one nearly caused by marriage to break down.
I was not going to say this and apologies, but maybe this little boy might be better off remaining in foster care where Social Services cannot wash their hands off him (and you). This way he would have more access to to therapy and other resources as SS are accountable.
Whatever you decide, I really wish you all the very best. You will make an amazing dedicated parent.
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Post by mrsbear21 on May 21, 2022 21:12:54 GMT
Thanks guys. Sorry if I've ended up drip feeding. Trying to make my posts comprehensive but then also not too long. I'm giving up on short at this point!
I've tried to copy the Qs not to miss them this time:
- Where is the third sibling?
LO is middle child, only boy, 5 going on 6. Sisters are: 6 going on 7; and 3 going on 4. The sisters were both placed in April with the same new adopters. So they are together.
I do think SS have messed the latest set of placements up by progressing the girls first. We had made an enquiry about LO before the girls were matched. They made us wait to even start speaking to them while they focused on the girls. I just don't think they had the resources to do otherwise but no joined up thinking at all.
- Why did it seem to be ok for the children to be adopted as 3? Yet the adopter, despite having been vetted for months and found a great match for these children, lost it within a week?
V.good question. And one we'll never be sure if we know everything on. Safe to say I really feel for those previous adopters. But ultimately I do believe it had more to do with them than the children. Not least taking on 3 at once as first time parents. We have never felt able to take on more than 1.
We've never seen CPR details for the sisters. But LO's CPR is not short on detail about his additional needs.
- Maybe, because the siblings had been told they were going to their forever home, they started recreating what went on in the birth home with the adoptive parents. With the result that the unsuspecting parents got drawn into these mind games without realising and then hey presto, LO get shouted at (blamed) again, like he would have been "at home".
Yes, I think there's a lot of truth in that. Something we intend to be watchful for. Although his play therapist has described LO more as a people pleaser than a blamer in himself. Clearly that's not good either and will need careful re-parenting
- So they were thriving in foster care and foster carer never had trouble managing them?
No she definitely didn't go that far. Doing well certainly. And in relation to that specific incident, she didn't think it was LO's fault. She has also described what his behaviours are like at his most challenging and what she does to manage those. And we have all talked about how these will escalate under the stress of the new placement.
We keep being told introductions will be very long. But we don't know what that means yet. We are prepared to take it very slowly though. Geographically he is close enough to mean we can spend introductions weeks (before he moves to us) in our own home.
- Was it the in the children's best interest to be split up (more trauma) or should SS have realised in the first instance that long-term foster is the right place for the kids? I can't help but think their decisions were and are driven by money.
Can't really answer that. But I'm under no illusions money will have played a huge part. Ultimately the split has happened and not induced by us. I do believe if his sisters remain in their adopted placement, it is better for him to have forever parents too. Or the blame game has become the reality; he wasn't good enough.
- What are his learning needs caused by? Genetics, substance abuse? How else has his brain been impacted?
Genetics, yes. We know the results of Mum & Dad's IQ tests. Not susbtance abuse. Both have given permission to SS to access their full medical history and they were known to SS before elder sister was born. No history/evidence of this. Add to genetics huge trauma. Pretty convinced he does have brain damage/delay given what we've been told about birth home conditions. Then he's long sighted and has glue ear, so I'd say some sensory deprivation has had an impact too.
But high educational needs is something both Mr Bear and I really feel we can support/help with. Especially if we stop at 1 child.
- What assessments have been done?
We've seen several PEPs, a very recent Ed Pysch report and play therapist's initial assessment comments. Will be digging into all this further with school on Monday. He doesn't have an EHCP yet. We know that's going to be a key initial battle. We won't be backward with new school on what we want and intend to push when they fob us off.
(Within our home area we now know a fair number of adopters including a local head teacher and a local child therapist. We've discussed LO with both and potential school options. Going out and finding them was as a direct result of the advice I got here last year ๐)
- Maybe this little boy might be better off remaining in foster care where Social Services cannot wash their hands off him (and you). This way he would have more access to to therapy and other resources as SS are accountable.
We have asked ourselves this. But largely because his sisters have already been taken away, and because his areas of need speak to the strengths we can bring to adoption, I do believe overall he'll do better with us than in care. And our SW thinks so too. We're with a VA so she has no hidden agenda I believe. She is in nonway connected to the LA or RAA. And she has specifically said this to us about the first child we looked into (the one that had had 4 sets of FCs).
Thank you for your kind comments about me. And pushing me to really think this through.
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Post by moo on May 22, 2022 19:07:21 GMT
Hey Mrs B Thanx For Sharing The Facts For Your Young Man..... Poor Chap He Must Be Really Going Thro It... His Grief Losing His Sisters Is Just Horrendous, I Hope His Sw Is Actually Explaining Things Sensitively...
I Don't Think Long Term F/c Is Considered For Such A Young Child....
It Seems Such A Shambles.... What On Earth Possesed His Sw Team Not To Have Matched & Assessed Appropriatley.... A Day & Breakdown OMG....
You Are Amazing Mrs B & You Are Tackling This Head On Leaving Nothing Un Explored.... Fantastic....
I Hope The Meetings Go Well & You Get Your Q's Answered Fully & Honestly You Are So On This...
I Wish You Much Luck.... Fight For Your Young Man I Am Sure Your Gut Will Guide You On What Steps To Take... You Are Well Read & Have Us Nagging As Devil's Advocate!!
Xxxx
Xx moo ๐ฎ
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Post by leo on May 23, 2022 7:28:24 GMT
Blimey, what a lot to process and a very busy week!
I donโt necessarily agree with Moo's opinion about not seeing siblings for a long time. For me it would hinge on what kind of relationship they currently have. Has contact been ongoing since the girls were placed for adoption? Do they/did they have a strong bond underlying the blame issues? Was it more important to one than the other?
Personally I think if they have a current sibling relationship (albeit with some issues) then it would be more conducive to bonding and trust to maintain contact from the start. If both sets of parents work together to keep the old behaviours and blame from occurring/have a single consistent message about why that behaviour is not ok any time it pops up then maintaining meaningful contact may help all the children move on from a position of understanding and trust rather than face a sudden cut off, blame themselves and then by the time they see each other again have lost their meaningful relationship.
The caveat is that I don't have experience of sibling contact other than knowing the older siblings of my two needed to know mine were finally safe and in a good home. I wrote a letter for them/their parents when my two were placed to aid this despite our children never having met (large age gap).
I would also seriously consider the LA themselves applying for an EHCP as a matter of urgency (they really should have done so already). An application from a social worker (certainly in my LA) is far more likely to get through the initial stages than one from a parent, especially if a school/nursery move is likely for placement. The process is so longwinded that this could then be going on in the background during matching and introductions - and by the time you are at draft stage you would be in charge and could make all the changes needed to ensure it is robust and useful (don't forget, therapy can be included as education or training!) I say this with the hindsight of someone who took 3 years to apply for DLA simply because I was too exhausted and didn't have enough time to tackle the forms. Has your LO already got this? Another thing for the sw to get on with if not!
Lastly, another opinion... make sure you pay a lot of attention to introduction plans not mimicking those of his previous failed placement. We were due to have a couple of overnight stays during intros but in the end I refused as I felt they would, for the boys, feel like their previous experiences of respite placements and I did not want to recreate that. Also, shamefully given how aware I thought I was, about 10 weeks into placement Tsunami asked me when they were moving to their new Daddy's. I had inadvertently recreated intros with my brother, building up from initial meeting to him looking after them for several hours while I had a review meeting with social services. It was a disaster with sadly long reaching consequences (mainly due to other complications to be fair but I do think it started with that).
Good luck for this week. Both take notes in meetings and compare afterwards, you will hear different parts of the messages - especially if one of you is more 'heart' and the other more 'head'. Excitingly scary times!
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Post by mrsbear21 on May 23, 2022 19:30:25 GMT
๐ Meeting with school went great.
No sugar coating but balanced. I do feel confident that we can manage his educational needs. Don't get me wrong; I know it'll be bl**dy hard work. But having our one on one attention will help him make the most of the abilities he does have.
I will trust my gut when it comes to contact. So far everyone (school included) say his sisters are very important to him, they have a lovely relationship and it will be very beneficial to maintain. But I will assess that afresh as our relationship with him grows and he grows up. As soon as I determine something is not right for him, I'll be putting a stop to it.
Food for thought on the EHCP issue. They do keep telling us intros will be very long......plenty of time still then!
Excellent thought re introductions. I'll be sure to bring that up at our planning meeting. That's in the diary for 8th June, all going well on Thursday.
As for the split and how it's been handled... ๐ SWs are doing their best, but no it's not how I would have done it at all. I've thought that from first reading the CPR. There has been mis-management of their case since the failed adoption. Scrabbling to make up for SS actions which compounded their early life trauma...... Not good at all. But it's done, and us not taking a chance on him won't undo that. We come back to the fact that we firmly believe he'll have better chances with us than left in his current situation & care.
Also getting properly excited now! School again had some really lovely things to say about him. It's amazing what he can do, given everything he's been through.
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Post by moo on May 23, 2022 19:37:17 GMT
Great News Mrs B...
Fab Such Wonderful School Input, Rarely Sugar Coat Educational Info imho....
FIngers Crossed For Meeting The Girls Parents....
If Thursday Goes Well, Next Step Picking His Forum Name ๐ ( Sorry Jumping The Gun )
Xx moo ๐ฎ
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Post by mrsbear21 on May 23, 2022 19:40:45 GMT
๐ Looking forward to it. Love his real life name which is staying exactly as is. But nice to think I will be picking a name.....
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