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Post by sockthing on Oct 15, 2013 13:11:09 GMT
With thanks to tokoloshe for providing the initial link to this website rainbowkids.com. This article very eloquently argues not to expect that your child will automatically transfer their attachment easily to their new parents. I wish I had read something like this before my son came home! it would have helped prepare my expectations more realistically. SWs are inclined to encourage you to think that if a child has attachments to their FCs, then that attachment will transfer from one carer to another quite smoothly; especially if the child is an infant. It's really not as simple as that, as I found out when my 10 month old who had only had one set of FCs , came home. Thought i I would post it here in case it is helpful to those of you waiting for your child. www.rainbowkids.com/ExpertArticleDetails.aspx?id=208&title=Insta-Attachment%20and%20Other%20Adoption%20Myths
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Post by annie70 on Oct 15, 2013 13:55:11 GMT
Thanks Toko and sockthing - very sage reading and very apt for us right now... LO should be home end November and SWs and FC are gushing about how 'adoptable' he is and how he is just happy-go-lucky and attaches so well... my alarm bells have been ringing and it's so hard not to believe it - we want to believe it - but we know we need to start from scratch with him if have a hope of him trusting us as forever parents...
What we are finding hardest is the knowledge that we need to keep him close and become his 'everything' - while knowing he is so sociable and loves activities and meeting new people and would really miss that if we did Christmas as just us 3... so hard to know what to do in practice even when you know the theory is right!
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Post by imp on Oct 15, 2013 14:54:40 GMT
I had really hoped that this myth of 'transfer of Attachment' was well and truly dead, but obviously not. It just DOES NOT happen!
What does happen, if the child has had a good experience of bonding/attachment (call it what you will) with FCs, and this can happen, especially if LO has been with them since birth, then the EXPERIENCE goes with them, so that they know what such feelings and experiences are. This then has to be built on and developed in the new relationship. It is so like the death of a partner. There has been love/attachment there, now they have gone, but the one that is left has those memories of a good relationship----so that when a new one begins they know what it can be like, and hopefully will develop. It all takes time.
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Post by serrakunda on Oct 15, 2013 15:01:42 GMT
I think you need to find a balance annie. Simba is also very sociable but first Christmas day for me and Simba was just the two of us and will be the same this year and probably will be until he stops believing in Santa and transporting pressies becomes less of a problem
My family live at a distance so it wasnt possible to see them for part of Chrismas or boxing day, but we had a family dinner a few weekends before, and we had lots of things to to like a visit to the panto with friends, went to the Christmas lights switch on etc so we had plenty of 'Christmas' activity and lots of social opportunities but the day itself was as quiet as it could be after a visit from Santa. It will be harder for you as he is coming so close to Christmas but I'm sure he doesnt need to miss out totally. It may be more about managing other people's expectations of how much time you can spend with them and how they should respond to LO.
I think there is also a big difference between bonding and attachement. Simba and I got on incredibly well from day 1 and developed a good bond very quickly, but securely attached no - I think we are just about getting there, a big turning point for us was adoption day as he was finally able to relax as he knew that the SWs werent going to take him away and he was stuck with me forever
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2013 15:28:34 GMT
Great article! Another useful one to print off for family and friends prior to your child coming home, to explain why you may ask them not to come round too often, or for too long, and how they must direct your child back to you for all personal care to re-inforce that you are his/her mum.
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Post by lemonade on Oct 15, 2013 16:40:51 GMT
Stating the obvious here, but shouldn't this sort of info be given to ALL adopters as standard. It seems sad that we have to share these words of wisdom with each other, when this is what should be talked about by our SW etc. I know I would have appreciated reading/hearing this during our (forgotten how long it was now, probably over a year) assessment. I vaguely remember our girls SW casually mentioning btw we think AD has attachment issues, that was AFTER she was placed with us! She is now 23 and STILL doesn't attach to anyone but is friendly and loving - so hard to understand by joe public even her DH has suffered because of her behaviour and I have spent time trying to explain to him, the little knowledge I have gained over the years to help him understand L xx
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2013 17:15:12 GMT
I agree with you Lemonade, it is something all SW should do as standard.
They should have an information/study pack for all prospective adopters going through home study and I would even go so far as to say they should have to undergo a type of exam before being approved to see how much they have read and understood of all the issues discussed during the prep. I don't mean a huge exam, but maybe a multiple choice test type thing, where SW's could score how much they had taken on board.
We have to pass a driving test to drive a car, but no one tests how much prospective adopters have actually understood.
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Post by annie70 on Oct 15, 2013 17:16:55 GMT
Don't get me wrong - all of our info / prep course etc has prepared us for this - as well as these great boards / AUK and you lovely people But even though the SWs and FC know about attachment theory and reckon they can see issues coming, I think they still get caught up in the excitement of a good match... I think and hope it will be a smooth transaction for him - and that we won't see any issues - but that's the point of the article I guess - it's all going on underneath... Serrakunda - you make a good distinction between bond and attachment - we think there will be a good bond and the SWs are just using the wrong terminology... attachment will / may come later and it could be a long time coming (or not happen at all)... Xmas time - we have fully-warned all friends and family that we will be staying close to home and limiting visitors etc and they have been very understanding - DH's mum is prepared to travel 5 hours by train and stay in a hotel in order to meet him for an hour So I think we are very lucky... (the issue of not buying presents before you meet him and he knows who you are is another story but we can manage that!) We are also lucky that my family live 20 mins away so we can just go for lunch and come home - no cooking for me The issue for us feels like the Sw and Fc expectations of his Xmas - they think we should launch straight in to activities / school visits and parties as he will love them - but that is not the point! Sorry - hijacked Ax
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Post by lemonade on Oct 15, 2013 17:24:06 GMT
Serrakunda - you make a good distinction between bond and attachment - we think there will be a good bond and the SWs are just using the wrong terminology... attachment will / may come later and it could be a long time coming (or not happen at all)... Annie70 good point Serrakunda made ... we have a really good bond with our AD's but attachment is another thing altogether.
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Post by kstar on Oct 15, 2013 17:46:20 GMT
Annie I would just go with your instinct. My SW laid it on thick about needing to stay at home and see no one, become the centre of Starlet's universe etc. I tried and failed - my mum, my cousin and her little girl met starlet in week one. Starlet was just as you describe your LO - confident, outgoing, sociable, active... And she laps up activities and meeting new people. She still does now. What I do is make sure we still have "us" time every day, normally from tea until bedtime on school days (so we might have coffee with someone or go to the park straight from school, but once we're home it's just us). Weekends we normally see someone one day and have a day on our own the other. We would honestly both crack up without other people! I introduced people slowly (ish) and made sure she got to know each new person/ family before introducing anyone else.
Christmas will be with family as tbh the thought of just the two of us when she's so hyper fills me with dread!!! We will be with close family who she knows well, at my mum's.
I know not every AC will cope but that's why I think you have to make the decisions that are right for you and your family :-) five months in and we have already done regular sleepovers at grandmas together, five days at Disneyland Paris, London twice, a sleepover together with family friends and a naming day!
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Post by annie70 on Oct 15, 2013 19:56:15 GMT
Thanks Kstar - that's really good to know... we won't be able to keep him to ourselves for long as he used to being in a busy household with lots of children and adults coming in and out (FC's parents etc which he loves to interact with)... I think we will introduce him quite quickly to friends and family who live locally but will make sure we have lots of 'us' time every day and limit visits to an hour or so to start with ... if we do 'lockdown' I fear he will think it's rubbish living with us I hope it will be okay to bond while doing Christmas stuff and getting to know people and then start school and build on attachment from January.. that's when the hard stuff starts I think - new school, January comedown, reality hitting 1-2 months into placement ... that also equates to bad weather and hibernating generally for most people I know Ax
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Post by kstar on Oct 15, 2013 20:46:29 GMT
Perhaps try to think of something for Christmas that will provide a bit more of a positive in the new year... We knew starlet would struggle after the excitement of her naming day, so mum bought her a summer house for the yard, which we built a couple of days after her special day. Starlet and mum went shopping for a carpet, lights etc and we put her baby bunk beds, kitchen and all her baby paraphernalia in there. It provided a much needed distraction at what could have been a nightmare time!
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Post by loadsofbubs on Oct 15, 2013 20:46:52 GMT
I was told that my understanding of a tantrum the bbs had on day two of intros with prospective adopters undermined their 'attachment' to her. she was screaming for the bubbles they took back to their cottage at the end of their second visit. I was told she was screaming for them (the adopters) becoz she didn't want them to go becoz she was getting so attached to them! no one would believe me that it really was bubbles she was screaming for. the words bubbles bubbles bubbles being screamed at 100 decibels probably should have given them a hint! scary that so many sw's (the family finder, the childs sw, the family's sw and the ff's manager) could be so utterly ignorant of basic attachment theories and the disbelieve the testimony of an experienced foster carer who had cared for this child for three years,
I can though also remember my son doing what the child from china did on day two of coming to live with me, clinging to me and not letting me out of his sight and me being so thrilled he was 'attaching' to me (spurred on by his sw's saying as much). but it was 20 years ago in my defence and I am much better informed now as is research and as should be sw practice (but sadly isn't). my AS has some significant attachment issues that are obvious to me now and with hindsight were there from the beginning.
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Post by kstar on Oct 15, 2013 20:52:58 GMT
What annoys me is the way you get a stock answer from SWs. I have never once felt that any response to a query or concern was directly aimed at ME as the adopter of STARLET, it just came straight from the social workers book of FAQ... I am sure if I asked three or four people from my prep course to phone their SWs and ask the same question, we would all get the same answer!! But as we all know, just like any children, each and every one of our precious LOs is so different, from their personality, to their experiences, their previous attachments, their resilience and how well you bond... As a teacher I am rightly expected to meet the needs of every child in my care, but SWs just play by the same old book!
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Post by leo on Oct 15, 2013 21:07:11 GMT
I'll start this by saying that we're in a bad place at the moment and therefore any of my posts may need to be taken with a pinch of salt...
Annie, for your child who is so sociable and enjoys being in a crowd, could this not be due to not having to make personal relationships with anyone when in a group. Or be a wall/mask to keep their true feelings and anxieties hidden?
Tsunami is a child who, to pepole who don't read all his very discreet signals, appears to enjoy and even thrive on loud, busy situations and lots of people. What is really happening though is that his little body is going into hypervigilant overdrive and he is absolutely terrified - but he thinks he needs to appear to be happy and coping. The effort he puts into this facade is astounding - but it is really just that, a complete pretense. Despite this total panic, he would still choose to be in a group of people or at a soft play centre than spend any time with me. He is terrified of making a close relationship with anyone so he flits (and previous schools said, 'Oh, he makes friends so well' when actually he didn't recognise them if they wore dfferent clothes!)
He is so dissociated that he is unable to recognise any of his body's signals and so truly thinks he is enjoying himself - whilst sweating profusely, heart nearly jumping out of his chest and breathing becoming more rapid.
After two years with me, he can show some of his anxiety to me when we are in private - but as soon as we are in public then the mask goes on, he shuts his emotions down and he plays to the crowd.
It is only in quiet and calm times that I truly 'see' my boys and that they can relax and begin some of the work towards feeling safe and attached. I would definitely recommend lots of calm, quiet and nurturing times in the first year - with only you doing any of the personal care of feeding, washing, cuddling etc. I know others will differ from my opinion and we all have very different children. I do just wonder sometimes how many children cover up their feelings as well (if not better) than Tsunami. To be honest, I would probably have missed the signs if it were not for Hurricane showing them more openly and then me 'becoming a detective' (advised by therapists) and finally learning Tsunami's oh so subtle signs of distress.
Sorry, not meaning to be negative.
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Post by leo on Oct 15, 2013 21:09:44 GMT
ps. My children were 'used' to being in a very busy household - but this was simply too stimulating and scary for them. Sadly no-one realised that or took any notice of it.
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Post by nancydanfan on Oct 16, 2013 8:13:02 GMT
Leo I so agree with your post.
Dd always came across as a very sociable child/ teenager and she can appear to be attached in relationships but as soon as they are not going all her way she's off-even if people were her best friends, supposedly for years. Despite claims of loving us, her adoptive family, she wants nothing to do with us now. She was described as attached to her foster carer but on leaving said she would not miss them. We have been told she is well settled in foster care now (because she is playing her confidentiality card we don't know how things are really going).
What I do know is that it makes brilliant reading on the forms when SWs declare how attached children are to their foster carers, how attached they are to their adoptive parents, how normal and settled these children are. And I do believe it can appear that way. Looking back I know I had niggling doubts about dd but I felt consistency, reassurance, adjusting my parenting, time, "claiming her", ie making the adoption legal would all help move her to a place of secure attachment. It hasn't happened and I tried all in my power to make it happen. Short of a miracle I'm not sure dd will ever attach to people in a healthy way.
The SWs job is to get children adopted. Maybe they are not trained well enough to understand the complex needs of abused neglected children. maybe they are willing to turn blind eye and deaf ear to what they see and hear about the real life experience carers and parents and children have. They will never run out of children that they need to find a home for so they have to move the children through as quickly as they can and then minimise the input they give to adoptive families.
So many of us have wanted to adopt for so long, we want to feel like a normal family and a big part of that is not feeling scrutinised by SWs having to have reviews, being just like the families we see around us with birth children. Part of me loved dd before I met her, had so much I wanted to give her, was so desperate to make it all better for her, had longed for her for so long (and that was despite having birth children to mother). Because of our good desires to parent/ love / sacrifice/ commit etc as adoptive parents we can fall victim to a system that will exploit us for its own ends.
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Post by annie70 on Oct 16, 2013 10:38:26 GMT
I think you're right Toko... and NDF, I am sure there is an element of them never running out of children and needing to find families asap for the ones they have got... I am getting the impression they genuinely believe what they see and say (about good attachment to FCs etc) rather than them intentionally being misleading... I think it's just that they come at these situations from a completely different place from prospective / adoptive parents and they have never actually put themselves in this child's shoes - nor have they ever spent more than an hour with them at one sitting to spot any inconsistencies...
Leo - so sorry you are in a bad place at the moment. I do think think that his sociability and 'comfort' around groups and noise could be a cover and there is undoubtedly loads going on underneath... we will have to see how he presents when he comes to us and keep it gentle and slow and keep him close. Christmas stuff and meeting up with people is unavoidable - and we think having some fun is important - we are both off work for all of December so there will be lots and lots of time with just the 3 of us bonding and hanging out and we will be keeping an eye out for how he is coping - especially for physical signs as he has had physical manifestations of anxiety when he was first taken into care...
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Post by imp on Oct 16, 2013 11:43:19 GMT
Leo, I don't 'like' your comment because of the difficult place you are in at the moment, but because I agree with what you are saying. Hope life becomes a little easier soon x
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Post by oysterbabe on Oct 16, 2013 12:03:09 GMT
A brilliant article I've just sent on to the care home where my son resides. He has attachment issues along with all his other diagnosed conditions which were finally given names in 2011. The professionals involved in his care team STILL believe he will attach to the home and the staff! This is at the age of 15 with several moves even when with us, he boarded at his special school a couple of nights a week, he was in a mental health unit and discharged into the care home. The honeymoon period lasted a good while as he was spoilt rotten and no one put too many constraints on him. Once the place got busier and he got less attention, more kids, new staff, just guess what happened? Yep the wheels fell off and he has never recovered from it. I received a lecture about attachment yesterday (see arf thread) from the 4th manager in 18 months who thought along with the others that cutting me out of his life for a set period of time would help him attach, therefore settle down and toe the line. Well that's not happened. I remain aghast that professionals don't get it and what drivel spouts from their mouths. Our county do lots of training about attachment, brain development etc but a lot of them really don't join up the dots in practice and when dealing with adopters, whether prospective or not.
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Post by loadsofbubs on Oct 17, 2013 7:05:08 GMT
there are children who really ARE securely attached to their foster carers, they may be few and far between but they do exist. I have had two (out of 15 placed children), both from birth, one who had three months of parental contact (twice a week for a couple of hours and positive experience) and one who had two parental contacts very early on (current little man). little man has an attachment to me similar to that of my daughter, sadly the only one of my three children with a secure attachment style. but the rest have all had some issues even while presenting as 'good attachment' by sw's. was even told that the bbs had a 'strong secure attachment' to me despite my early concerns about it and despite writing (at the same time as telling me this) that she had 'no attachment to foster carer' in her file. (just another case of sw's saying one thing while recording another)
leo, you could be describing the bbs in your post. she seemed to others to thrive in busy noisy and chaotic places, she smiled at everyone she met, she was 'friendly' with everyone, but very very early, at only a few months old, I could see that smile did not extend to her eyes, she was breathless, she was sweaty, her heart raced etc. and I did everything in my power to make a calm environment for her at home (once i'd sussed what the problem was and how to better manage it for her) so she had a calm base to then be able to go out and be better able to manage herself out and about and in these noisy 'fun' places. and I do beleive that she did enjoy them at times, but she could also get extremely stressed as well. I got to a point where I could pinpoint the time to leave, before the enjoyment turned into anxiety and stress. I cried when the sw at her disruption meeting was going on and on about how marvellous it was that she was going to be moved to a 'busy and lively' household. everyone involved professionally with her (from the ss) felt she needed a busy and lively home becoz of the way she presented to them, and the calm environment I created that had such a huge beneficial impact on her overall development, (a change noted by the sw's but attributed to the 2 half days a week she spent at nursery!) this was cited as a reason to move her with the implication I was impeding her development in some unspecified way. I've never really got to the bottom of why she was removed from my care, the answer changes so often and still isn't forthcoming, but the belief that the professionals had that this smiling, happy, sociable child needed a lively and busy home led directly to the 'concerns' held about my care becoz I was trying so hard to provide a calm and quiet home for her so she could cope when she had to go outside of it. her health improved, her development improved, her emotional maturity improved, she began to show pain, she began to enjoy cuddles, she began to be able to sit still for more than 3 seconds, she began to play with imagination- the benefits were endless. but sw's (without consultation with the paed or nursery or sure start staff who saw the same as me) decided that I was effectively restricting her movements, restricting her experience and therefore impeding her development. so she was removed from my care and placed in a busy and lively household.
I cannot even begin to think how she has been since then, I have heard nothing that makes me confident that the new carers understand her needs and nothing that makes me confident that she is as 'settled' as sw's tell me she is. I've heard only things that tell me she took a huge dive developmentally and that she is now a very anxious little girl again, but becoz she smiles and appears happy and is very very lively then sw's did 'the right thing' to move her to this household. i'm beyond despair for this little girl and the harm the ss have inflicted on her and of the ignorance that led to the decision to remove her and so wish someone had invented time travel so I could go back in time and put in my own application to adopt her before she was so harmed by the disrupted adoption followed closely by the disrupted foster placement.
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Post by nancydanfan on Oct 17, 2013 8:18:03 GMT
so sorry to hear of your bad experience loadsofbubs
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Post by sooz on Oct 17, 2013 8:52:19 GMT
I agree with Leo, and don't find it a negative view at all. It's realistic and needs talking about. Our own wants and needs can cloud our judgement, I know I've done that, my desire for ds to fit in with his peers and family expectations led me to ignore his needs. 'Tears of a clown' springs to mind, and when my ds said to me, aged 5 'I make people laugh because that's what they want' it floored me and made me re think how we live our lives. He was assessed for attachment problems at 5 also, he is very avoidant but mainly secure. He doesn't want to deal with his feelings and acts the goat, appearing to love to be in the company of others. Only in the last year has he expressed his desire to stay home, no visitors, be where it's quiet, and even still I've had to catch myself and not think getting out and about is better for him. We do get out, small chunks mainly and balance it with quiet days. It's not always understood by others but it works for us.
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Post by taliesin on Oct 29, 2013 11:45:05 GMT
We have very limited experience, but a few things Annie has said has resonated with what we have experienced thus far: SW's do seem to get caught up in the 'excitement' of a good match; I dont think its so much that they're totally unaware of attachment & bonding (although some are of course)....but more that they dont want to scare prospectives away...they want a home for the LO's and SW's airbrush concerns away because the alternative for them is potentially no match for the child.
Oof course, thats no help in the longterm for us or the LO's and certainly not what most (sensible & realsitic) adopters want....but lets be honest, they're firefighting constantly and WE are more clued up because its OUR future, we have the biggest stake in this...
Kstar's own experiences also have shown its not the 'tailor-made' service it should be....how can 1-size fit all when youre dealing with human emotions? Personally, I think the best we can do is to carry on beating the drum to all around us who'll listen, read/learn as much as we can, accept that as far as our FF & own SW's are concerned, they want a 'happy' conclusion for their part of the process so they can move onto the next child....
And remember to trust our own instincts and be honest....
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Post by kstar on Nov 4, 2013 23:23:02 GMT
Basically my SW still says that attachments need to be formed at home, where the child learns to feel secure. I honestly don't think this is the case for Starlet... She is equally happy/ distressed/ confused/ anxious/ chilled and the other roller coaster bits no matter where we are. Her attachment is to me and me alone. If I am with her, she can cope with most things. We regularly sleep at my mum's house and also my best friend's house to give me a bit if support when I am tired... Starlet loves it, it's a treat for her as she gets extra attention all round. It's especially useful at mum's as mum does all the cooking/ cleaning/ boring stuff, freeing me up to concentrate on real bonding.
Interestingly, about a week ago (five months in) Starlet said "mummy I love you" (not unusual and answered with I love you too). She then said "no mummy you don't understand, I really really love you, in real life". To me, this melted my heart far more than the first time she called me mummy or the first time she said I love you... Because I think this means she has started to process what love really is. She also said to grandma "I really like you a lot grandma, I might love you I don't know". I was so impressed with the emotional intelligence here!
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Post by sivier on Nov 6, 2013 13:48:08 GMT
Yes kstar, I'd agree that 'in real life' is a pretty huge step - that would have definitely got me snuffling into my hanky!
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Post by gilreth on Nov 9, 2013 23:47:32 GMT
I certainly know the bond is coming more & more each day I spend with Sqk but as yet the attachment isn't really. Yes he looks for us but as yet I would not say there is attachment. I am not sure if he has yet truly grieved for move from FC who he had been with since he was 5 weeks old (so over 2 years). There was no instant attchment for us - took me a facile to go from fake 'I love you' to truly meaning it. However I cannot imagine life without him now
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