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Post by larsti on Jun 28, 2016 11:15:06 GMT
Like Moo I didn't think Leave would win. I am not suffering from 'buyers remorse' though or whatever the phrase is that is being bandied about.
It is alarming how people are reacting. Our eldest came home for the weekend and he lives in London. It was his birthday on the 24th and he spent most of it monitoring comments on social media. He did come home in the evening and we spent a lot of time disussing the whole thing which he found helpful. It was really interesting to get a first hand account of what the zeitgist (sp?) was.
He knows that our reasons for voting leave were not anything to do with immigration and we can't be tarred with the brush that is being used to accuse all leave voters as racist bigots (or ignorant working class....how bigoted is that in itself?) I suppose to some young people we might count as 'old' (so our vote can be discounted as irrelevant and selfish on those grounds, according to some).
I am Scottish and am appalled but not in the least surprised by the reaction there.
Basically I can understand bitter disappointment and even fear for the future (there was a lot of scaremongering and now people are scared, despite the fact that some things that were supposed to happen have not happened...no emergency budget for example). What I find the most worrying development is the lack of respect for democracy. To me it is the same phenomenon as students blacklisting speakers they don't agree with on university campuses.
When free speech and democracy are under threat, that's when you have to worry. This country isn't any more racist than it was on Wednesday of last week.
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Post by serrakunda on Jun 28, 2016 11:36:47 GMT
Flutterby that's dreadful
For what its worth, I don't think that the majority of leave voters are racist, undereducated bigots. But a small minority appear to have taken the outcome as license to engage in unacceptable behaviour, and these people can be very dangerous, and no, I agree that as an country, we are not more racist than we were on Wednesday, it has exposed something very worrying.
I do understand why Moo had a problem with the EU, same as the fishing industry and some other sectors. I haven't and wont be signing that petition, but nor do I think democracy has been served well by this whole debacle.
We had a referendum because Cameron couldn't keep his party under control. Both sides failed to put across reasoned, understandable arguments. both sides tried to frighten people. No one had a plan for what happens next.
The result is just a total shambles and this country has no effective leadership of any political persuasion.
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Post by cowgirl on Jun 28, 2016 13:30:42 GMT
my husband for years wanted to be out of the EU. Over the months we debated and discussed the issues. He works in over seas banking and was confident that we could leave without any financial problems and that inevitably a "deal" will be struck and we will have very close links with the EU However I just could not vote leave as I felt that every racist Daily Mail reader would have credence from my leave vote. From an economic stand point I agreed with my husband. My stomach churned again this morning when I heard a 7 year old Polish lad had found a note of paper with "Polish out !" in Polish of course so there would be no mistake of the intention I stand by my comment I made before the referendum. Many people will vote out because they want Britain to be white ! They don't just mean EU residents ! I live close to a city which has one of the biggest Asian populations and I really feel they meant them The educated amongst us who voted out I am ashamed to say in my humble opinion are the minority On the morning of the referendum I was looking at the local cities football message board to see if we had any new signings. Somebody had posted "if you vote remain today .. you are a traitor" Says it all really doesn't it
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Post by gilreth on Jun 28, 2016 17:07:19 GMT
Saddened by results and waiting to see what we end up with. Given business pressure I expect free trade to remain so we will probably have to keep free movement to get that. The thing about the democratic majority is it is actually below the threshold the government want to impose for strike ballots (40% of eligible electorate to support) and it is fairly narrow - when you look at figures - 37% leave, 35% remain and 28% abstain (did not vote) so whoever gets into power is going to have to work with all sides. One of my Australian friends cannot believe this was done on a simple majority of those who voted... However I do respect the decision just want to ensure we get the best we can from it - from a personal perspective we need to stay members of European Research Council and have some free movement. Plus ideally we need to stay members of European Medicines Agency (which is based in London for now) as otherwise we will be low on the list for new drugs as the companies will go for European/US approval as a matter of priority and only then worry about UK.
I do not believe by any means that all leave voters were racist - far from it - but it would appear (as I suspected it might) that a leave vote has given those who are the feeling that they can say what they like as the majority of the population supports them. I am standing up against this strongly (fair number of colleagues are non-British by birth) and my husband actually refused to serve someone yesterday in his pharmacy due to the racist comments made towards a Polish customer. Thankfully he has the right to refuse to serve people unlike doctors - an adopter I know on Twitter reported a conversation his husband overheard in the hospital: German doctor treating a patient Patient:”Where you from?” Consultant:”Germany” P:*sneers* “You’ll be sent home soon”
Wander who he thinks will treat him then...... The problem with the increased racism/hatred being displayed is that it is turning off some people who voted leave in the first place and making them regret it.
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Post by cowgirl on Jun 28, 2016 17:52:45 GMT
I certainly do not think all "leave" voters are racists My apologies if my previous post gave this impression I haven't been out this week. I feel even more down hearing about these incidents.
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Post by mudlark on Jun 28, 2016 21:05:14 GMT
What is frightening, is that the Brexit victory has ignited and to some extent ( albeit inadvertently) given credence to a very unpleasent nationalistic fervour, it seems not only here in the UK but across Europe with far Right wing parties seizing on the moment and calling for similar referendum in their countries.
I am sure that is not the reason most people voted to leave, but that is part of the outcome. It might feel like we are teetering on the edge of something nasty, but the thing is all that nasty nationalistic racist zeal was already there, just waiting in the wings for a chance to flex it's muscles. Because of the muddle headed lies and half truths the campaign espoused ( on both sides) now they think they have a mandate.
I will sign the petition and indeed anything else that might put a stop to what I think is a terrible error of judgement.
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Post by serrakunda on Jun 28, 2016 22:28:26 GMT
Cowgirl, no I don't think your post gave that impression, I for one was just expressing my thoughts.
Simba asked me tonight why we were keeping Europe and why everyone seems so upset about it. I'm struggling to explain it in a way he can understand, I haven had any news coverage on in front of him, hadn't discussed it with him in the way I did with the election last year. I know they had a mock referendum at school, whatever he is picking up must be largely playground stuff.
I do feel a bit concerned about him. He was struggling to grasp the concept of racism anyone, but understands enough to know it is part something not nice directed at pepole with brown skin, like him. He asked me to promise I won't let him be kicked out of the country. I am worried cause that if he will not be able to defend himself or have the nouse just to run should the need arise.
We have a large Eastern European population here, an established large Asian population, two universities which have grown rapidly with huge numbers of foreign students. The city voted out. It is a worry.
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Post by jmk on Jun 29, 2016 8:29:32 GMT
I think that's the problem. The whole campaign was misleading and did not focus on what would happen afterwards if the result was leave. That was why I was surprised the leavers won as no one had discussed the implications of what would happen if we did. Richard Branson was on tv the other morning calling for a second referendum saying that a lot of people voted based on the campaign bus saying they were going to give £350 million to the NHS. He was also talking about the impact on businesses and the economy and how a lot of foreign businesses may well now pull out their UK headquaters and relocate to other European cities and the job losses that would entail if they do. I also saw on the news last night that a lot of Brits who have Irish parents or grandparents are now applying for Irish passports so they can travel freely and work within the EU if they so wish. A lot of students were angry saying that their job prospects when they graduate are far more limited now as they will not be able to look for jobs abroad should l they fail to find employment in the UK. The expats living abroad are now concerned about their future as fhe pound has plummeted and their pensions are now not stretching far enough and the value of their homes are worth less. They are also concerned about what will happen if they get ill and need hospital treatment as they are no longer EU citizens. The whole thing is a mess and I still cannot believe nearly half the population voted to leave without really debating what would happen afterwards. I'm just glad I am Irish and have an Irish/EU passport so at least I have a choice about where I can live/work and can move if it really goes downhill in this country. DD's have British passports and consider themselves British because their birth family are. I wonder if that will change? I really truly hope those who voted to leave for whatever reason don't live to regret their decision and that whoever gets to lead this country has a good plan going forward. Independance is great, but at what cost.
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Post by topcat on Jun 29, 2016 9:15:30 GMT
Democracy? - it always struck me that it is easier to unite people over something they don't want, much harder to agree on what we do.
My point was always that the Leave campaigners never set out how they would achieve any of the benefits of leaving - other than an assurance that we will work it out, which struck me as an unfair choice. Those who were prepared to live with this uncertainty exhibited great trust in the decision makers and 'the system' whilst being inherently distrustful of everything anyone else was saying and another 'system'. I can only think those who were prepared to live with the economic fall out are rich, if not in money then in self confidence, support, education or religion because we, of all people, know what being poor can mean.
There was(is) no political structure / party in a position to deliver 'leave' so this result was always going to split our own 'system' - new political parties? far right / far left? disintegration of existing parties? different kinds of coalitions? We'll work it out.
So we 'get our country back' and we no longer have 'them' in Brussels but we suddenly find a new trust in 'them' in Westminster despite haranguing politicians during the campaign for scaremongering and lying and fostering such a pitiful lack of respect, personal blame and anger with politicians that a man can be driven to murder an MP for doing her job.
A referendum is not legally binding and parliament has to vote to revoke the 1972 European Communities Act in order to leave. That will require a majority of MPs to carry the motion. The MPs that we democratically elected last year to represent us. And since the people have spoken and 4% more have carried the motion to leave the EU those MPs will have to wrangle with their conscience and/or their party to decide how to vote given that the majority supported a remain campaign. That is, assuming our system holds together to get that far.
There are no winners here. I am afraid of the gaps that are made while we 'work things out' and what will fill them.
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Post by elderberry on Jun 29, 2016 13:00:42 GMT
jmk, my situation is the reverse of yours. I am British, but DD considers herself Irish because her birth family are. Wonder how she will react if she ever realises she's not eligible for an Irish passport because she's adopted (though she might not have been anyway). She spent last weekend ranting about old people who had voted to leave even though they will die soon, while she didn't get a vote but will have to live with the consequences. Not that she totally understands what the consequences are.
I spent 10 minutes yesterday researching whether I was eligible for an Austrian passport as my father was an Austrian citizen before the Nazis took away his nationality. I found out I probably am not (though he would have been), but also found that if I did get an Austrian passport I would almost certainly have to give up my British one. Which rather defeats the object of my freeloading on a country I've only visited once.
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Post by sooz on Jun 30, 2016 9:44:41 GMT
Knowing what the result would be, would anyone have voted differently?
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Post by moo on Jun 30, 2016 17:02:59 GMT
No....I am most stunned that living in what I thought a democracy still manages to mean, that those who lost feel empowered & ( able ) to seriously think they can overturn the result of a national poll.... .. Weather one believes a decision wrong/right/badly thought out or not, a winner no matter by how small a majority, is still the winner....
How on earth is it ok for bullies on either side ( in this the stay camp ) to say.... ok joke over you just havn't thought about this have you.... we are the wiser ones we are better educated & cleverer than you, enough is enough we just won't allow this vote to stand .... wah wah wah its not fair!! I think not people.....
Xx moo xx
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Post by mudlark on Jun 30, 2016 17:19:58 GMT
... what makes me angry and sad is that the public, 'us' were misled, given half truths and some complete lies by both sides, meaning that the level playing field ..never was .. and the vote for 'in or out' was really just voting for which ever politician or in some cases not a politician could be most persuasive and deliver 'facts' about the outcome which might appeal...whether they were true or not.
It was not democracy at its best as those of us having to vote were not given treated to the courtesy of being told the truth...even if the truth was ..they just didn't have a clue what would happen....is the resulting outcome democratic or just manufactured political expediency.....
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Post by pingu on Jun 30, 2016 20:33:45 GMT
I dont agree that its wrong to want to change a referendum result. We voted in our MPs last year, and mine at least was quite clear on being pro EU. What if the Scottish indipendance result had been different ? ( and it might happn again as many here wanted to be in the UK but within a UK that was in the EU ) Will you feel let down by the Scots ? That is how the other EU members seem to feel right now at the UK decision to Leave. As for Democracy, the number of Scots voting Remain was a much higher percentage than the UK as a whole. (about 63% I think. Well over the union ballot proposal rule) but we are stuck with the UK level result, as we voted to stay in the UK. ( Being told we now have to respect that reminds me of the advice that women who married unpleasant men used to get told " you have made your bed, now you need to lie in. " We didnt vote Conservative much either but we still got Mrs T and the poll tax ( a year before England) and the destruction of our industry and economic base.by decisions to put investment elsewhere over the years ( as of course did other parts of the UK) So democracy is the decision of the country, but which country.? ( the UK by the way is not a country, it is a kingdom( queendom) of several countries)
However , every cloud has a silver lining( another untrue saying!) if the economic crisis brings lower interest rates , at least that will help with the mortgage.! ( although interest rates are so low already its not going to make much difference.unless they start paying us !!!) Good luck to you Moo, I hope farming gets easier, and fishing too ( though we will still have to have quotas to preserve stock which means investment in boats/ nets and unless England changes the party it votes for substantially, I doubt much grant money will replace the EU grants.) Delighted of course if I am proved wrong. I would love to feel proud to be British again.
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Post by larsti on Jun 30, 2016 21:25:31 GMT
I don't regret my vote or the result. It is sad and disturbing what is happening now but I don't feel to 'blame'.
I suppose the lid has been lifted on what was there already and that's what I mean by we're not anymore racist than we were before. But I agree that its a very bad thing for people to feel they have permission to express their hatred.
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Post by milly on Jun 30, 2016 22:22:36 GMT
I don't think it is democracy as it is clear many people did not know what they were voting for and no one seemed to have thought beyond the day of the referendum itself. I don't believe 37% of the population should be able to dictate to the rest of us. Someone should have decided what the percentage needed to be for such a drastic change. It's not like a general election where you might chance a vote, but will get to vote again within five years if you don't like what you find yourself with. I blame Cameron for deciding to hold a referendum in the first place. And unlike Michael Gove (who thinks children should calculate with roman numerals and understand and use the subjunctive form), I do believe we need experts to understand complex issues on our behalf.
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Post by corkwing on Jul 2, 2016 6:46:35 GMT
no one seemed to have thought beyond the day of the referendum itself. I think that's a little unfair. I think I had a pretty reasonable view of what was going to happen after the referendum. Basically - nothing for a number of years as it takes quite a while to negotiate our exit. Then the chances are that little substantial will be seen to have changed: we're most likely to still have free trade access into Europe and free movement of people. Basically, similar to what Norway have. But, given our economic size and importance, probably on better terms than Norway.
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Post by gilreth on Jul 5, 2016 22:07:44 GMT
I am hoping for that Corkwing but suspect there will be some very disappointed people if that is what we end up with as they want rid of free movement and having to pay into budgets - both of which we will have to do under Norway model. My major concern at the moment is the number of academics who are reporting being removed from collaborative teams given the uncertainty as to whether we will be eligible for EU research funding in the future. Again if we are we will have to pay into budget with potentially no say on the priorities for how it is spent - one of the reasons (amongst others around free movement & ability to work across EU for instance) the support for the EU was so strong in academia. We were net gainers from the research budget up to now (i.e. got more from it than we put in).
Plus personal concern over some family members jobs as local SME they work for has to be in EU (too much trade with them - 75%+ and no prospect of replacing it with stuff outside EU due to nature of the products) so they could find themselves without a job if we lose free trade. Not many jobs in their fields round here.
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Post by serrakunda on Jul 5, 2016 22:35:32 GMT
i dont think many politicians thought much beyond the day though Corkwing
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Post by milly on Jul 6, 2016 19:11:02 GMT
That's what I meant, Serrakunda! (And probably a lot of voters too....)
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Post by pingu on Jul 6, 2016 23:20:28 GMT
The ramifications will be many and myriad, in ways we do not yet know or realise. I am still a long way off being convinced that these will overall be positive. My distrust is because of who in government was and is keen for Brexit and who their backers are ( watch the money) And yes , of course it will take time for some things to be settled, so for many the differences won't be very noticable for a while. But that's not the same thing as the referendum not making much difference. As an oldie I remember when they said the same thing about industrial decline rather than doing as other countries did and invest to make us more competitive. They said it didnt matter as service industries and finance would take up the slack. Its taken 30 years to show this one, only now is it not hidden by the credit ( ie debt) bubble. Same with the small cutbacks and subsequent belt tightening each year to public services and local government provision, eventually it reaches a point where people notice the pain and squeek. For the fortunate there might not be any serious differences to their income and lifestyle once we leave the EU, but for many the effects are happening already and I havent heard too many good ones yet ( though I am sure there are some) I know that some people voted to leave because they really think it will be good in the long run, but I also think a lot just wanted jobs and prospects again and felt they had nothing to lose. Just seems puzzling that they thought this was the way to improve things since they voted with those whose party policies ( copied by others)caused the decline that left these people where they are today .
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Post by topcat on Jul 7, 2016 7:55:15 GMT
I wonder if those questioning our 'democracy' can cast their mind back to how they voted in the "AV Referendum" in 2011.
I hear a lot of 'leave' voters saying they didn't expect Leave to win, they didn't expect their vote to count? In some places that's a common feeling in a general election. Because it's rare for our leaders to actually represent the majority of the population...but in 2011 68% voted that they preferred it that way so that's what we have. One of the arguments for this system is stability.
This latest referendum was not about democracy - it was a political tool meant to silence UKip and save the Tory party by putting the EU question to bed.
Now that the public has spoken and the political tool has exploded in their hands our representatives will be reaching for every other available 'tool' to return our system to stability, inside or outside of the EU.
The issue now, as I see it, is that we did not vote the current set of representatives (MPs) in on the basis of their proposals, terms, support or not of what they propose to happen outside the EU. For this to be democratic we now need to be given that chance - through another general election.
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