|
Post by mudlark on Jun 6, 2016 21:15:56 GMT
I am interested to see how we would all vote...if we are as split as the rest of Britain seems to be?!
Rather suprisingly Lawping has shown a great interest in the EU vote..and is a passionate advocate of remaining ( possibly I may have influenced her!) She regularly asks people how they are voting. I think she could be a natural for political campaigning!
Anyway just wondered if anyone felt like sharing ahead of the big count how they feel....In or out?
|
|
|
Post by serrakunda on Jun 6, 2016 21:36:22 GMT
Fed up with the whole thing,
No one has made a convincing argument either way, all just scaremongering
But probably will go for staying put
|
|
|
Post by kstar on Jun 6, 2016 23:40:37 GMT
In! More because I am anxious about the unknown element of leaving. Also because, of all the voices trying to make themselves heard in the debate, I am most inclined to believe Stephen Hawking who is very eloquent about why we should stay.
If it was an option, my vote would be stay but reform.
|
|
|
Post by moo on Jun 7, 2016 5:21:11 GMT
Farmers are very very anti Brussels... In our world everything revolves around their opinion & rules.... Then when crunch time happens it is only uk farmers that follow the rule..... oh who is it that flouts defra regulations first?!?..... you've guessed it every other non uk farmer the closer to Brussels the most likely!?
Everyone in our community are desperate for out & are very vocal & reasoned about it..... It would appear it is not just the British farmers holding up the EU.... without Britain the whole EU would flounder.... they will bankrupt in weeks!?.... all stay reasons are conspiring to keep our money propping up Greece & soon Turkey & the EU in general....
The most ludicrous scaremongering I heard was apparently if out we will have to have a visa to go to EU!?! Since when?!? British & proud why is a passport suddenly not enough.... don't even need a visa for USA anymore.... & why would getting a visa If you want to go be so difficult?!?
Sorry guys the vote will be rigged.... we are stuck in .... Cameron will have received all sorts of incentives to ensure the public vote to stay is the only option do not get me going on that .....
Forgone outrageous decision.... the British farmers are always overlooked in favour of EU import & bonkers policy to financially pay them & not us the true provider.... obviously once we are bribed into staying milk prices & quotas will drop again.... ( 17p litre currently.... remembering we still have to pay outrageous fees to get the milk collected every other day!! 17p phah more like 5p!! )
Ok off my soapbox now ... sorry guys but all true....
Xx moo xx
|
|
|
Post by elderberry on Jun 7, 2016 7:09:37 GMT
My DD also a surprisingly enthusiastic advocate for remain. I'm not aware that I have expressed any particularly strong views to her in the way that I certainly did before the general election. I will be voting remain, though.
|
|
|
Post by topcat on Jun 7, 2016 11:08:41 GMT
IN
|
|
|
Post by mrmlegal on Jun 7, 2016 12:32:09 GMT
In - I'm with Kstar
|
|
|
Post by monkey on Jun 7, 2016 19:26:30 GMT
I find the whole debate quite scary - the fact that the decision lies with the general public, a huge proportion of which don't know / won't understand the implications of their vote. There is so much scaremongering that I think it's extremely difficult to see the facts. At the current time I don't feel sufficiently informed of the facts to make a judgement and as such I don't think I'll vote.
|
|
|
Post by pingu on Jun 7, 2016 20:13:30 GMT
Its been interesting watching this from Scotland. The Leave arguements are like a rerun of all the arguements given by those arguing for Scotland to leave the UK.
None of the Leave spokespeopla are folk I would trust to buy a used car off, nor would I trust them to protect vulnerable people. Cameron may be bad but they seem even worse, especially the ones that rant about migrants.Seems to me that EU debate should be about more that that. After all we go and do jobs in other countries and retire there. Dont exactly like the present govrnment but Boris ( and Trump in the US) sounds like a nightmare, and I dont think for one minute that things will improve except for the bankers and financiers and super rich. They will just have more power to rip us off without the EU limits. At the present moment it is EU regs that keep the roof over my head and shoes on my childrens feet, not UK ones as most of our rights have been removed over the last 35 years and most of the jobs too. Excuse the cynisism but I think patriotism is being misused by ambitious people.
|
|
|
Post by milly on Jun 7, 2016 21:55:41 GMT
Stay definitely. Not that I trust the arguments necessarily, I just feel maintaining the connection is positive and leaving a retrograde step. Plus the immigrant arguments incense me. Immigration is part and parcel of British history going way back. I live in a multicultural area and teach in a school where virtually no child is white British. I think it's great!
|
|
|
Post by corkwing on Jun 8, 2016 5:17:28 GMT
The "stay" argument seems to be largely based on the EU as it is at the moment. To me, however, the EU is something that is slowly changing. It is becoming more and more a "United States of Europe". So in order to vote remain, I feel that I have to be convinced that that is a good, reasonable and stable way for the EU to go and that I am voting for the EU as it will be in 10 or 20 years time. In the long run, is that going to be a sustainable model? I'm not convinced that it is.
I look around Europe (and the rest of the world) and I see people groups who want their own identity and self-determination. We have had that to some extent with the Scots. You also have the Basques and Catalonians in Spain. We saw that when Czechoslovakia split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. We see it with the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey. And so on. As I see it, people generally want to be governed as part of a unit that reflects their culture and identity.
I've talked to other Europeans about this and have not found any who are in favour of the United States of Europe model. All have had big reservations. So I am surprised that it often comes across that Britain are alone in this debate. There is the impression that we, of all the countries in the EU, are the only one that are unenthusiastic and sceptical. That's not actually true. It seems that the populations of most, if not all, other countries are equally sceptical. You can see that when you look at the results of referenda in various countries about, for instance, the Maastricht Treaty. The results were hardly overwhelmingly in favour. And that votes themselves are just the headline figure. How many of those voting for the treaty would have done so with significant reservations? "I'll vote in favour because it's best for us economically, but it's not really the way that I want it to go."
It's true that their lead politicians may not be sceptical, or may not feel able to express their scepticism. Angela Merkel isn't going to come out and say, "actually, UK, I can see your point and I worry about that myself". But they are a very small number amongst the whole population.
So, in voting to remain, I feel that I would be propping up, and even encouraging, a system that is unwanted and goes against my natural instincts of how government happens best - that is, the nearer the people, the better.
I feel that the argument against this is largely economic. If we stay, we'll be better off. To me, that feels like bribery: treating us like kids who can be duped into doing something against our will and instincts by offering us a lolly. I'm afraid that doesn't do it for me.
Lots is made of statements by people like the IMF that if we leave things will be "uncertain". Yes, they will be. No one knows what will happen. But firstly I'm willing to live with that and secondly I think that the future in the EU is also uncertain. We still haven't had a resolution to the Euro crisis. I know it's dropped out of the news, but I don't think that Greece has been sorted, nor Italy, Spain and Portugal. Nor has the whole institution of the Euro been fixed. So what happens there, and how that would affect us (even though we're not in the Euro) also seems to me to be uncertain.
It is also uncertain how we would be treated in the future. Sure, they talk about opt outs, etc. but that seems to me to lead to the conclusion that we would be slowly ostracised. While everyone else plays together, we would be the unpopular kid on the outside of the group who is tolerated at times and sneered at at others; the one who isn't really in the group but isn't out enough to have their own identity and friends.
So uncertainty, to me, isn't a determining factor. There is uncertainty with staying in as much as with leaving. I do believe that Britain is big enough and strong enough to stand on its own, whether in or out, so I'm willing to take a bit of a risk.
And so my instinct is to vote to leave. I would do so reluctantly to some extent. When David Cameron went off to get reform, I was hoping that he would come back with something significant. I was very disappointed that the reforms seemed to consist pretty much of changes to the rate of child benefit for migrants whose children remained in their home country. I didn't see that as a major issue: it wasn't even something that had come into my consciousness. I was hoping for something much more fundamental than that.
And so I am forced to conclude that the EU is determined to go in a direction that I don't want to go and I don't think is right. Sadly that means that I will probably vote to part company with it.
|
|
|
Post by moo on Jun 8, 2016 8:48:46 GMT
Spot on corkwing.....
This is exactly what us farmers have found.... it is a flawed to suit more of EU than us.... ( we already have strict policies in place designed to promote animal health, disease control, good working practice, but because EU do not have the same high standards uk is penalised & used to prop up others' shortcomings.... thus financially is forcing many generationally farming families to go under... it is becoming a dying tradition.
As you say EU decisions & policies have morphed beyond belief & in the last 5 years have become untenable causing farms to fold livelihoods & family traditions going back 100's of years to cease ...
I think the public would be well advised to take heed as all you say has come to pass for us already...
I am confident it will follow in 'civvy street also ' as with us faster than you can imagine... I do not think it will, as you say, be as we would wish it to change.... not for the better for the uk....
Xx moo xx
|
|
|
Post by topcat on Jun 8, 2016 9:08:38 GMT
what I don't understand is how the 'leave' campaign can honour what may or may not be possible when they do not represent a political party and even if they did they would then need to be voted in to power to implement any of it.
|
|
|
Post by corkwing on Jun 8, 2016 10:05:58 GMT
what I don't understand is how the 'leave' campaign can honour what may or may not be possible when they do not represent a political party and even if they did they would then need to be voted in to power to implement any of it. Well, they're carefully not actually promising anything but generally throwing around possibilities. E.g. they think that the government will have more money, so they've sent us a leaflet telling us how many doctors, nurses, hospitals, etc. that could fund. It's not entirely stating the facts but designed to make you think that we'd get all those resources ploughed into the NHS. But then a recent report slammed both sides for misleading and sometimes false claims. And all political parties seem to do that sort of thing. The number of leaflets I get around the time of local elections full of issues that are nothing to do with the borough council is shocking - they include national issues, as well as things like policing which are controlled by the county council, not the borough council. I don't think that it's right, but it does seem to be normal.
|
|
|
Post by larsti on Jun 9, 2016 5:46:35 GMT
Definitely voting out. For reasons of national sovereignty. Sometimes I have a slip of the tongue and refer to the EEC. It was supposed to be an economic community. What we got was 'ever closer union'.
I will be surprised if we do get an out result though as people are naturaly conservative with small c.
|
|
|
Post by mayan on Jun 9, 2016 10:22:37 GMT
I am not anti European - I weep for what the EU has done to families across the union in the name of its relentless ideology of closer fiscal and political union at any cost - including democracy and accountability to the people. Its fiscal policies have been dire and remain so, it's free movement principle is in tatters and it spits in the face of democratic people by appointing technocrats and unelected faceless bureaucrats. Remember too the deal Blair did with giving back some 40 percent of our rebate in 1984 in return for reform of the CAP which then was reneged on - Cameron's paltry nehotiations haven't even been ratified yet....If folk thought what has happened to Greece has been a catastrophe of their own making, what about the silent implosion of Italy and take a long look at France - hoist by its own petard in slow motion.
There will be trouble ahead whatever the vote for sure - our finance and immigration issues won't be solved either way but forging a different direction by voting to leave something that clearly isn't working - is worth standing up for - I doubt we will be allowed to leave but that's how I intend to vote.
|
|
|
Post by jmk on Jun 9, 2016 15:20:48 GMT
Have already cast my vote (by post) to stay in.
I can't help noticing that British people call any European people in this country 'immigrants', but call all the British people that live in France, Spain and other European countries 'Ex pats'. Double standards in my eyes as I'm sure they would take offence if the Ex pats were referred to as 'immigrants' in Europe.
I do however think that the whole European Union should be reformed and looked at again and possibly changed, but by all the participating countries within the union as I think most countries would like a bit more say about how their individual country is faring within the union.
|
|
|
Post by gilreth on Jun 9, 2016 21:16:27 GMT
In here and fairly passionate about it - but then again much of my research funding comes form the EU (we are actually net gainers from the EU research budget) and it is EU rules that forced my work to give me a permanent contract. I do not trust anyone on the Leave side and am concerned about the fact that they keep throwing around ideas about what would happen with the money. I feel we need to be in to influence reform from the inside and am afraid if we were out we would be like places like Norway and Switzerland that have to obey the EU rules (in order to sell to the EU) but have no influence over what those rules are. I also feel that with the way anti-federal parties are rising in Europe the likelihood of a United States of Europe is receding - and anyway we would have a veto and in order to go to qualified majority would require a vote that can be vetoed.
I agree it needs reform but do feel it is best done from within - particularly over obeying the rules which other countries seem to flout. Also I know that many of the family-friendly policies would potentially not have come about without European rules. My husband always signs out of the European work-time directive so people calling that an issue for some places of work - it is not in pharmacy - pharmacists standardly sign out of it as they normally work 45 hour weeks anyway.
I have got annoyed with some people equating the EU to the European court of human rights - as they are distinct and separate bodies - so voting leave will not taje us out of ECHR as a few people I have debated with believe.
|
|
|
Post by mudlark on Jun 9, 2016 21:41:19 GMT
|
|
|
Post by imp on Jun 11, 2016 18:50:47 GMT
Already voted by postal vote---to stay in. My thoughts are that we can't effect change in Europe if we're not in, and I really doubt that we are strong enough---after all that successive governments have done to the country----to stand alone
|
|
|
Post by imp on Jun 11, 2016 18:54:42 GMT
Sorry, went away to get cakes out of the oven---and reposted . xx
|
|
|
Post by vickyvixen on Jun 11, 2016 22:46:30 GMT
I've already voted too to stay in. I found it quite traumatic - Osborne & Cameron on one side & Farage & Gove on the other. The campaigns have been terrible - a bit like Zac Goldsmith's mayoral campaign, full of scaremongering and completely ridiculous statements. The main reason I voted to stay in is because I don't think our economy could cope at the moment with the uncertainty of leaving. It is the wrong time to be having the referendum and I think Cameron made a big mistake putting the country through this. I am a financial journalist and get inundated with news & views on the economy so that may have influenced me!
|
|
|
Post by jmk on Jun 24, 2016 10:36:47 GMT
Have been glued to the TV all morning watching history. I can't believe how close the outcome was. It shows how devisive the country is.
I just hope all of the politicians now realise how important it is to listen to the people. They are arrogant and have had their own way for too long. Hopefully this is a wake up call to all of them.
I find it interesting that now the decision has been made, the speeches they are making are far clearer and far more honest than all the spin and rhetoric in the campaign bumpf.
Interesting days/months ahead.
|
|
|
Post by mudlark on Jun 24, 2016 17:43:43 GMT
A day that will be remembered for a long time. I agree with JMK it has shown how divided we are as a nation, how unhappy and marginalised/ ignored and disspossessed many people feel, ( biggest council estate turn out for years) but it's a shame they had to use this referendum to voice that, as I suspect many voted on the single issue of immigration which is/ should have been a whole different debate.
I voted to stay and I am saddened at the result, I do not think those who voted to leave will get the Britain they hope for.
I shall be watching with interest to see how the Brexit camp intend to make this work.........
|
|
|
Post by serrakunda on Jun 24, 2016 18:41:01 GMT
I agree Mudlark, those who voted out will not get what they want.
I am shocked and horrified at the quite frankly racist things I've heard from some leave voters. I worry for Simba
Scotland is likely to leave the UK.
Really very worrying times.
And the thought of Boris Johnson as PM, god help us
|
|
|
Post by gilreth on Jun 24, 2016 21:23:37 GMT
I have seen racist comments about the place and worry for our future. That those on the leave side who are xenophobic/racist/bigoted will see this as a vindication and be more loud about their comments. It is up to those of us (be we remain or leave) who oppose such views (the majority I believe) to speak out against them. I do not believe those who want out will get what they want - business will want free trade access which means we will almost certainly have to keep free movement & 75% regulations (if we want access to service industry). Therefore not what a lot fo people want.
Plus I have seen a lot of anecdotal evidence of people who voted leave now changing their minds....reason i was saying to people if you are unsure vote remain as we can always go later whereas once we leave that is it basically.
|
|
|
Post by rosie on Jun 24, 2016 21:30:12 GMT
Yes I also feel very saddened and shocked at the result. I agree totally with all the things you say Serrakunda and Mudlark; very worrying times ahead.
|
|
|
Post by serrakunda on Jun 26, 2016 21:06:09 GMT
What a mess
Neither Conservative or Labour has a credible leader. Nicola Sturgeon is apparently going to try and use the Scottish Parliament to block Brexit.
Whatever outcome you wanted, this country is falling apart.
|
|
|
Post by flutterby on Jun 28, 2016 5:58:45 GMT
I have always loved living here. Valued the general openness and tolerance of people, the friendliness. And now? Over the weekend I went to a walk with LO, lots of people around, talking to each other about it. There were two normal looking men, not thugs, discussing with pride how glad they were about the outcome of the referendum followed by "now we can finally get these f... foreigners out of our country. And if they don't go quietly, well, there's ways." The other man just chuckled. I have never felt so chillingly threatened in my life. LO certainly doesn't look English and as for me, well. Surely, this is not what what anyone wanted.
Sorry, I know a lot of people probably won't want to discuss the referendum anymore. It seems to have become this big white elephant and it's such a shame the country has been so terribly torn apart by this.
|
|
|
Post by moo on Jun 28, 2016 6:38:03 GMT
Deeply saddened by the racist comments so many have been hearing.... That is obviously very very far from my reasons..... ( not even considered tbh.... ) Was shocked when I heard that government were looking at ways to overthrow the decision... There was me thinking we lived in Democracy how could that possibly be an option to overturn?!.... Deffo very tuff times ahead.... but yep very shocked by the result didn't honestly believe it would be leave....
Xx moo xx
|
|