patanya
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Post by patanya on Oct 4, 2013 22:40:55 GMT
LO's nursery have just started a chart - all good children on the sun those who misbehave get put on rainbow / cloud/ storm depending what they have done. Parents not told about it tho. Picked LO up yesterday in tears as he'd been out on cloud for spitting. Hus new key worker ( new Asst Mgr) had introduced this. I explained about his background low self esteem etc, she took me to see it to explain it!! And there was a photo of my little boy on a cloud, the only child on it - all the others were on the sun. I got tearful felt he was being shamed infront of the other kids and parents. I to,d her this morning I did not agree and wanted hus photo removed. She made Me go to speakto the mgr, who I really like, who has also adopted. She was kind, but said they wanted to treat all kids the same, etc etc, it was not the naughty cloud etc . In the end she said they would not put my LOs photo on it but asked me to come up with sth else. Hope you can follow this.
Am I over- reacting? This morning LO refused to go to nursery. I eventually managed to get him there.first thing he said tonight when I collected him was I wasn't on the rainbow today mummy! He has a low self esteem as it is don't think he will cope with this.
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Post by moo on Oct 5, 2013 4:55:51 GMT
{{{}}}
I have to say I am gobsmacked.....
Sadly at my sons school they have this system too..... But I think it works better as the kids are that bit bigger& no photos are involved.....
I am amazed that the manager can't support your ds more....
Think you have to stand your ground.... You don't want him treated differently to the others BUT you don't want him included in this as it really isn't working for him..... Surely they can try a different approach..... No-one need know....
Is it a busy nursery??... perhaps they would change their tune if they realised how distraught your ds is & that you were going to remove him to try somewhere new once he has re-grouped???
Good Luck ......I think other Mums will soon be complaining about this system.....
Xx. moo. Xx
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Post by justbserene11 on Oct 5, 2013 7:10:18 GMT
Hi,
I think using this system for 3/4 year olds is silly, especially when some are still settling in etc. why can they not reinforce more positive behaviour etc? They could do this by just using 'the rainbow' but could put a tick etc every time a child does something positive (sitting etc). This maybe would stop the shame? Would this work? I am also surprised that the centre manager was not more supportive!
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patanya
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Post by patanya on Oct 5, 2013 7:30:01 GMT
Thanks both, it made me very sad. I am not against them having boundaries etc it's this shaming method I just don't get or like. Apparently I am the only one who has complained.
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Post by abiee on Oct 5, 2013 7:36:35 GMT
The problem with this system is that it works on the assumption that all behaviour is choice, if they believed that behaviour is communication they would use a different system
This is worrying because of the underlying belief
Get some good reasoning and try to show them why its not a good system. The impact on children is awful
I'm glad others have complained too it will help your case
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Post by imp on Oct 5, 2013 8:38:17 GMT
This is just awful , for any child of nursery age, and especially for a LO with low self esteem. No doubt no other parent has complained yet as their child has been 'good' so far, just wait until they are the only ones with a photo on the cloud. IMHO this is victimisation, and is totally against the ethos of any caring establishment.
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Post by Ad-minnie! on Oct 5, 2013 8:39:01 GMT
Based on being both an adopter and my professional background, I found this behaviour system shocking especially for young children. It is NOT a way to build self esteem. Personally, I don't think you are over reacting. I know that if this happened to my LO, I was be extremely upset. What training do the people working in nurseries get??? I do hope you are LISTENED to about this. I remember someone posting on old boards about why reward charts don't work with adopted children (it might have been Corkwing). Perhaps a similar thread needs to be started so we could put together an information sheet to give to nurseries etc about this issue. Although I think it is a particularly sensitive issue for adopted children, I think it is not a helpful strategy for any children. I have been doing some adoption workshops recently and they have talked a lot about shame including in LOs. To me a system like this can evoke shame which is NOT a useful/helpful/constructive way to help a LO with their behaviour.
Sorry I think I have ended up on my soap box a bit here. Just feel passionately about this sort of thing.
Sending big cyber hugs patanya
Minnie x
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Post by Ad-minnie! on Oct 5, 2013 8:40:10 GMT
Just to add shows a lack of training in child development/psychology etc!!!
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Post by abiee on Oct 5, 2013 8:42:43 GMT
Sorry- thought you said some others had complained
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Post by justbserene11 on Oct 5, 2013 8:46:06 GMT
Definitely agree with you AD-Minnie
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tootsie
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Post by tootsie on Oct 5, 2013 20:19:52 GMT
Another one who agrees with Ad minnie here. That is a terrible system to use. What about the 'good' things your little boy has done throughout the day, do they just get forgotton? They should be focussing on the behaviours they want to see more of and not making a huge example of the 'bad'. Poor you, I hope they see sense. If they don't then get someone from Post adoption support to have a word with them. I'd be so livid about it. Hugs to you as I know you must feel terrible when collecting him and dropping him off  |
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patanya
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Post by patanya on Oct 5, 2013 21:57:50 GMT
Thanks all. It was only after a second mtg with the manager and me crying lots and explaining over and over it was bad for his self esteem, humiliating, hurtful etc that she eventually said they would not use it for him,BUT want me to come up with sth else. I have been trying to think all over the last two nights but can't think of what to suggest. I did say just do what you did before but that's not good enough. Spoke to two friends who work at other nurseries and they were shocked too.
Thanks for your comments at least today he was at home .
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Post by vickyvixen on Oct 6, 2013 13:55:47 GMT
I guess they could still have the sun or whatever they want for good/special behaviours but just have that - and maybe limit the numbers going on the sun to one a day. That way I guess they can praise really good behaviour/actions but everyone else is left off the sun and therefore no one child is highlighted for alleged poor behaviour.
I do think it's shocking though. In my dd's old school the same kids used to get the awards every term/year whereas if they have to have them it would have been so much better to give them to the kids who tried the hardest - even if they weren't 'the best'. That way every kid would know they had the chance of winning the award... In her final year at the school the more enlightened head of year managed to give awards to every child over the year which really made them all feel special.
I recall Sally Donovan talking about the same thing in her book. You would think that people working with children would understand how damaging things like this can be.
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thespouses
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Post by thespouses on Oct 9, 2013 9:27:09 GMT
I think if there is a chance to go on the sun and they make sure that everyone gets it over the course of a week/fortnight depending on how many in the group - every child will have SOME behaviours that, for them, are positive. For you child (now I'm sure he's not this bad!) but it might be a whole day without spitting! For another, it might be tidying up all the Wendy house toys. Different children are at different stages.
They should also NOT be saying things like "well you won't go on the sun then".
I actually don't agree that all behaviour is communication. Some behaviour is just lack of control, and isn't trying to communicate anything. But that doesn't mean the child chooses to have lack of control. Any number of things can be due to lack of control. A toddler has a tantrum because they are tired, not because they want to have a tantrum, or because they haven't got the words to tell Mummy they are tired but want to tell her.
Communication has an intent to convey a message to another person; a signal, in contrast, like a rash or a pedestrian crossing changing colour when someone presses a button, is caused by something and does convey a message (your child needs nappy cream, or, the traffic needs to stop for safety's sake), but the child's bottom, or the traffic light, doesn't intend to convey a message. Behaviour is often a signal rather than communication.
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patanya
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Post by patanya on Oct 17, 2013 20:44:44 GMT
More advice needed please! My LO is no longer put on this chart at my request, however, am beginning to feel I have done the wrong thing!
LO got home from nursery today, when I collected him I asked his key worker how he had been and she said fine. Later at home he told me he had pushed a little boy. He said because they would not give him the toy he had asked for saying please! I said I was sad etc. he said it was ok as he had not been out on the rainbow!
I have not told him I asked them to remove his photo. Now I am not sure what to do. He thinks this behaviour is ok as he has not been put on the rainbow! Apparently another worker told him it was sad, and made him apologise so it was dealt with.
What should I do? Makes it worse it was my friends little boy he pushed.
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Post by pirate on Oct 17, 2013 21:05:24 GMT
I say wrong!
My daughter didn't experience this at nursery.
Very much treat kids the same.
Really naughty that they are aware of him being adopted.
This is my thoughts: I would see if there are other nurseries in the area because of the signal/feelings taking him there both for him and you.
I don't get their thinking with this, can have such a knock on effect at all levels like confidence reluctance to go, behaviour, and so on.
This has made me feel sad like I'm the singled one out.
How do you feel about returning there?
Pirate
Xxxx
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patanya
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Post by patanya on Oct 17, 2013 21:21:16 GMT
Tbh I dread going there. LO in the main likes going as far as I can tell. I feel like they are talking about me as I raised this chart as a problem. They probably aren't but who knows! My friend is happy with this chart, but her son has not been on it! He actually bit my son's nose and drew blood! But before the chart was introduced! he was not adopted.
In summary, I walk the walk of shame as and whn he's done sth wrong! Although before new lady arrived as his key worker he was doing great. Again they don't get the attachment bit.
We have parents eve in a couple of weeks with new worker so am preparing for it.
Feel a bit down and worry about school evn though it's not til next September!
Would it be wrong to move him now? He's been there about 10 months.
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Post by pirate on Oct 17, 2013 21:54:07 GMT
I think if you are not happy, then take him somewhere else.
It is a shame that nurseries/pre schools don't have training about attachment issues or adoptive children.
People I know swap and change nurseries/schools several times for various reasons.
Parents eve at the school is fine, just tackle them with an open mind and ask any questions:/fears that you may have.
Good luck
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Post by justbserene11 on Oct 18, 2013 7:46:07 GMT
Hi,
I'm not sure if you have done this or not but what about giving them some literature about attachment issues within education? Are there some resources in the education thread or some other place (maybe the moderators may know)? It may help when at this parents evening to put your point across using this or even give a focus to the discussion. What astounds me is that if a child had a special need, they probably wouldn't use this system with them (my nephew is severely autistic and went to a main stream nursery, this system would not have worked with him for obvious reasons), the whole reason that our children have now been given priority placements in schools etc is that it has been recognised that our children have at the very least have additional emotional needs (early trauma, attachment issues). Like Pirate said if you still are not happy then maybe find another nursery? I hope you get some resolution soon xx
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Post by rosie on Oct 18, 2013 13:45:17 GMT
Really agree with others. As a teacher myself, and adopter of a daughter who still doesn't get consequences; I hate any reward/punishment system like this. I don't think it would be a good system for any pre school child, let alone one with self esteem difficulties. Why can't they emphasise the positives rather singling out children as 'bad'. If the nursery are not acting positively after your discussions, I would seriously look into other placements. The fact that you dread picking him up suggests they are not acting positively to you or your son. Hope you can sort things out.
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Post by abiee on Oct 19, 2013 6:38:18 GMT
But if they are having a meltdown because they are out of control then that is what they are communicating
It is just looking behind the behaviour rather than assuming that they are choosing to be 'naughty'
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patanya
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Post by patanya on Oct 19, 2013 6:59:59 GMT
Hi, thanks for all the replies. I have given them literature to read. Yesterday I spoke to his key worket( new asst mgr), she was amazingly nice and we had long chat. She explained her previous experience was in a school, she did not have any children and had thought about my concerns. They have made changes to chart system and were fine dealing with my LO in a different way! We agreed to keep communications regular and she said she was pleased with how he was doing. I am helping on a Christmas trip too,  ?? And they got an outstanding just from OFSTED so things can't be all bad! I am sure there will be other issues with my LO but I do feel better now x |
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Post by janpan on Oct 19, 2013 7:46:44 GMT
Part of the problem with this is that in their eyes the 'rainbow' strategy DID work because he didn't want to be on it any more. So in the short term it might work. But that doesn't make it ok. And it certainly won't stop the behaviour. In fact it will only make it worse because he will try to hide it if he has done something wrong, inevitably ending up worse and ultimately building up to some explosive situations. I'd move him if it's reasonably straightforward, it's never going to be ok for you there now and it's going to bother you every day.
I know that walk of shame. I had it many many days at primary school. 'There's the mother of those children - she must be a really bad parent'. It didn't go away at secondary either, parents evenings etc. I found that my school parent friends became the parents of other tricky children. At least they understand that it's not always all that it appears. And our long term friends with birth children largely don't 'get it'. So don't worry too much about your friends opinions ( though I know how hard that can be).
It's a long, hard slog, school is.
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thespouses
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Post by thespouses on Oct 28, 2013 9:05:06 GMT
I think it's broader than just attachment issues and the teachers may struggle to make the connection anyway. I think this kind of behaviour system is wrong for many types of children, not just those with attachment issues.
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Post by gilreth on Oct 29, 2013 21:36:34 GMT
This kind of behaviour system may work with some children but not all be any means. Wish there was specific training on attachment any other issues for teachers. I know locally schools have been doing some training, but this type of issue does not just occur with adopted children but with many others as well.
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?? And they got an outstanding just from OFSTED so things can't be all bad!
