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Post by pluto on Jun 30, 2015 9:02:25 GMT
I have a question, my Einstein is not doing briliantly in school so I have decided to practise at home a bit (lot) over the summer holidays. As he forgets things very quickly but learns good when there are daily repeats.
What is a reasonable time for a 9 year old to sit at the table and work on one subject, say match, how much break does the child needs before moving on to the next, say reading?
I think 45 minutes is reasonable to spend on one topic, but is it? Than a 30 minute break than another 45 minutes.
How long are the blocks of learning in primary school for age 9? Than I mean excluding the time it takes to get kids in the classroom, settled, with a pen in their hand.
Thank you!
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Post by bop on Jun 30, 2015 11:23:40 GMT
I'm not a teacher but my gut feel is 45 minutes would be too long for my kids....when DS was ill earlier this year, the most he could manage was 20 minutes....we did several 20 minutes slots and it did help - he made more progress in Maths than over the previous year.
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Post by serrakunda on Jun 30, 2015 11:55:15 GMT
I've always done work with Simba over the long holidays but wouldn't attempt to run it like school or even formally. He needs the down time but I agree the long summer holiday can mean they slip back.
There's lots of ways to incorporate learning into day to day living, rather than sitting them down at a table. I do have some practice books for maths and English and I'm happy if he does a couple of sessions over the week. We pick some of the exercises or projects and it takes him however long it takes, sometimes an hour, sometimes less. He also keeps a holiday diary, a bit like a scarpbook, so he writes in it what he's done, any outings etc and he sticks photos, bus tickets and any other bits and bobs he collects in it. He gets quite a lot of hand writing and English practice doing this. Fortunately Simba loves reading but he reads to himself in bed every night for 15 minutes or so, so I don't feel the need to make him sit down in the day and practice reading. We also tend to do a lot of educational stuff in the holidays in terms of musuems or other activities, so his brain is still working but its fun, not school
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Post by mudlark on Jun 30, 2015 13:56:44 GMT
Pluto, I think 45 minutes in one go is quite a long time.
Lapwing is home schooled two days a week. I try and keep it structured but fun for her. I try to keep all the learning in smallish chunks of time. So we will play schools, where I pretend to be a teacher and write out maths questions for her, leave her for 10 minutes to complete them, then mark them with her. In little chunks of ten minutes we can do maths for up to 30 minutes, as long as it is within the game of school.
Last year she kept diary in the summer hols, with some help from me and encouraging her to draw picture along with the writing. It really helped with her writing. We will do it again this year.
She quite likes reading to me, but I have given her a little chart so that every time she finishes a book she gets a sticker.
It's playful most of the time, but I do find her attention span is short but as long as there breaks she will usually come back to it.
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Post by esty on Jun 30, 2015 18:38:45 GMT
There's lots of research saying that twenty minutes is the most the brain can stay fully focussed. With your sons issues as well I would perhaps suggest starting very short and sweet then onto a different subject. Might also benefit from lots of exploratory learning?
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Post by sooz on Jun 30, 2015 18:55:39 GMT
For sitting down with text books....I'd say ten minutes (my 9 yr old would struggle any longer and lose focus), however, mixed with practical hands on stuff (measuring stuff around the house with a tape measure, pacing out distances, finding shapes around the house like cubes, measuring and working out area etc) then maybe up to half an hour.
Keeping moving helps here.
Sitting in one spot.....no!
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Post by wibbley on Jul 2, 2015 23:02:35 GMT
My eldest was HE through GCSE years. After A LOT of discussions with tutors it turned out that 1 1/2hrs pw 121 with a tutor + a piece of homework (somaybe another 1 - 1 1/2hrs tops) PER subject covered a week of schooling. So that's a max of 3hrs pw per subject at GCSE level. He did much better than school had predicted  So, as we are talking younger, then that's not anywhere near 45mins a day per subject. Personally, I would stick to the 20mins suggested with lots of learning through play & life in between Good luck Pluto |
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Post by pluto on Jul 3, 2015 6:42:26 GMT
Thanks for the replies, i did not mean 45 minutes a subject more 45 a session until break. The thing what confuses me is that in school children have to work in 90 minutes sessions, true? say school starts at 9 finishes 12.30 than you have only one break in between, that are two sessions of 90 minutes.
I ones heard the whole of primary you can do in 1.5 years if taught 1:1 and without arts, sport etc. But that is for avarage children I expect, my child is a slow learner and needs loads of repeats for knowledge to stick.
Very intersting what wibbly writes, I can barely believe that, so little time!
The homeschoolers, for sure some work with sitting down sessions? How long are those?
For example to learn to write you need to make the practise hours otherwhise you can never write. For reading you have to put in the hours also as without practise it will never stick.
Ofcourse you can encourage the child to read signs etc, but you can not do that all day, every day, it would be too much. A reading session sitting down might be more productive. As you than also can read at the child's level. The signs I expect any parent to do now and than, that's just part of life.
6 weeks sun, sea and schoolwork! (only joking)
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Post by serrakunda on Jul 3, 2015 7:21:14 GMT
Yes they might have 90 minute sessions buts it's not necessarily 90 minutes sitting down looking at a book.
I went to a maths lesson at simbas school a few weeks ago. In a 45 minute lesson, they started off with whole class in front of the interactive board with the teacher doing calculations, then they went back to tables and did group work, then back to whole class for problem solving and talking about different methods of doing the calculation. There was a lot of variety and discussion
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Post by larsti on Jul 3, 2015 11:26:58 GMT
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Post by pluto on Jul 3, 2015 18:00:02 GMT
Yes I have several of her books, the problem is it's not intense enough, not enough exercises. Ones you work through the book that's it, my child need one book with 5 times the amount of exercises.
I use a computer programme now where he can endless repeat. Also cheaper as I paid £50 and got all grades primary school. Language, match, topo and tables (1 times 1 til 12 times 12, etc).It remembers scores and gives rewards in the form of stars and pictures.
For writing I let him copy a children's poem daily in a notebook what he choosed.
So far so good. Still need to experiment with the time, what he can deal with. By the way he has plenty of free time left, I just hope I can give him a push this holiday. He's pretty relaxed at the moment so so far so good.
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Post by sooz on Jul 3, 2015 18:37:29 GMT
Just got snoozs statement review, and IEP to go through......one target set was for him to work independently for 5 minutes.....target not met!
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Post by milly on Jul 3, 2015 19:22:00 GMT
Most primary schools would allocate about an hour to a lesson generally but that would be broken up in tbe way Serrakunda describes. The children might be expected to work independently for about 20 - 30 minutes, depending on the lesson - and not all would achieve that without help at age 9. They might also work in pairs or groups rather than independently. I've never home educated but I reckon, given the work would be tailored to the child's needs in a one to one situation, that 20 - 30 mins per subject (if you want to teach subjects) would be plenty. If concentration is poor you might want to break that into separate 10 or 15 minute sessions. Or change activity every 10 minutes. Little and often would be better than a longer session.
Btw my just 10 year old's teacher expects them to read for 25 minutes a day. My dd has no learning issues but she would struggle to read aloud for 25 minutes solid. Mostly she does 10 to maybe 15 and not every day. (She has only recently started reading 'in her head' for pleasure - I don't time that!)
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Post by wibbley on Jul 3, 2015 22:57:57 GMT
Also, 121 learning is very intense & just not the same as a class of 30 sitting down for maths.
My middle AC can churn out 5 worksheets in quick succession - they are instantly marked by me, mistakes explained & then immediately corrected. In a classroom situation each worksheet is explained to ensure all levels of learning understand, questions asked by multiple students, hands up for more help during writing, children waiting their turn etc, worksheets handed in & given back days later with corrections. Working 121 is quick & effective - the children cover way more work in a shorter time frame.
So an 1 1/2hrs 121 tuition + a piece of homework equated a week of GCSE tuition in school. Shocking, but we have found this to be true after initially disbelieving the tutors.
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Post by pluto on Jul 4, 2015 6:53:12 GMT
Very interesting to hear the experiences and ways school work. I sort of come to the conclusion that if you have a slow learner it would be a disadvantage to the child not to work at home. As those children are slow anyway in understanding, processing, working.
They will never preform in a classroom situation as good as they can at home, without destractions, moments he might be 'lost' because he does not understand quickly and the teacher moves on etc.
Ofcourse it is important not to overask those children, but in my experience concentration can be learned if slowly build up.
Many things are very very poor with my child, but he can concentrate well if there are not too many destraction. When he came school thought he had adhd, now that is no longer an issue. I think his instrument playing for which he practises daily with me (around 90 minutes in one session) has a lot to do with that. Obviously we started with 10 minutes 3 years ago, for the ones who question how that's possible.
In the beginning of those 10 minutes he might only concentrate 3 properly, but things improved over time. He also has 50 minute lessons what is amazing in a way. 30 And 40 minutes are also possible but in the teachers opinion this he can manage.
And as I sit in on the lessons he has good attention the whole lesson, he adores this teacher so that helps.
School is very different obviously as there are too many negative factors for him to preform, he's more than 2 years behind. Can only do match up till 10 on a good day, and scores even on this level many below avarage marks.
Any more people who have experience in this area? I find it very interesting to read.
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Post by larsti on Jul 5, 2015 16:51:21 GMT
Which computer programme do you use Pluto?
Dash uses Studyladder which he seems to enjoy and be making progress with (not with me though, with a friend of mine who teaches him 3 mornings a week, so I don't have much experience with it myself.
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Post by rosie on Jul 6, 2015 22:36:44 GMT
Hi Pluto
I am replying with my teacher's hat on as I work a lot with children having difficulty with maths; though a bit younger.Do you mean just matching counters or objects to 10 or addition / subtraction ? If just matching it would probably be worth playing lots of games that involve counting or number recognition. Dice games involving tracks e.g old fashioned snakes and ladders or Frustration are good for counting on and using a dice with spots or numbers will help him build up recognition of numbers. Lots of games can also be adapted by using more than one dice to develop addition and subtraction.As it is more fun children will often concentrate longer. Orchard toys do lots of nice games. I think for children with difficulties a small amount of time often is best and using practical equipment or toys helps them get a visual picture in their head.. Another good computer program is Mathletics though you do have to pay a yearly subscription. The levels can be tailored to individual children and there are computer games for all areas of maths and a challenge game where they compete against other children. Pairs games and bingo games are also good. When my daughter used it we chose a level below her chronological age.
With reading and handwriting too I would only do little and often.
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Post by milly on Jul 7, 2015 17:00:01 GMT
If you are concerned about his understanding of number, have you tried numicon? It is a set of plastic representations of each number to 10 (each number a different colour) Each piece has x holes arranged in pairs. It means even numbers are an even shape and odds have a bit sticking out. They are brilliant for loads of maths concepts. So for adding, for example, two and eight fit on top of a ten etc. And it's easy to see this. You can buy a box - and get a book of ideas to go with them.
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Post by pluto on Jul 7, 2015 21:14:48 GMT
Thanks for the reply Milly and Rosie. I had numicom for my oldest long ago, I also have a box with sticks of different length. So 10 loose ones is two sticks of 5 length or 1 of ten etc. I have a board of plastic numbers 1-100 etc.
The poor child can no longer eat any biscuit without a question, lol, endless sharing, dividing, multiplication etc. He just past the level of 'if you have 4 biscuits and you have to share with all 4 at the table, how many biscuits get everyone? If you have 8, how many? Why? etc.
It is the multiplication song of 2 non stop in the car, lol
Maybe you are right and I should get the sticks out but he has been counting beads and fingers for 2 years now and it did not make a difference.
In fact he was stuck with counting his fingers, I got a shift 2 days ago when I made him stand with his hands behind his back and ran a sussession of easy until 10 sums past him. When you're 9 and need your fingers to know how much 2 plus one is, something went wrong along the way. He has a mental block for any number higher than 10, that's why I thought it is a good idea to learn the multiplication of 2 from the outside. He made the multiplication exercises of 2 very good today, by the time we work through all the exercises multiplication 2 he can dream it, I hope!
I have done ABA math with my oldest years ago, that was learn from the outside and automise it, I work a bit from that principle. Learn from the outside through endless repeats and hopefully the penny drops one day.....
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