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Post by daffin on May 25, 2015 4:23:52 GMT
That's it really. Monkey Boy vibrates with tension at home, is profoundly impulsive and hyper, can concentrate on playing if you play with him but left to his own devices runs around - literally until he bounces off the walls. He's oppositional, controlling and, and, oh difficult.  At school he's a different child. He is extremely compliant. Seems to be able to focus. No behavioural issues. My question for you guys is.... could he have ADHD and 'act in' at school, or would it just be impossible for him to keep it under wraps?
(I have completed a questionnaire for an ADHD referral and the one completed by the school is as though it was for a different boy. Unrecognisable!)I'm really trying to understand what's going on here! ADHD in the mix or 'just' attachment and trauma? BTW - he's EXHAUSTED after school, and finds it exceptionally hard work. Could this be (part of the reason) why? |
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Post by moo on May 25, 2015 5:20:47 GMT
Hugs daffin.....
I too am having this worry.... seems overly compliant & 'manageable' at school!?? Apart from not spotting the overly compliant bit!?..... finding the differences staggering.... hope someone is along soon....
Xxxx
Xxx moo xx
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Post by corkwing on May 25, 2015 6:14:37 GMT
Personally I'd be surprised if you could have ADHD and control it in one specific situation.
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Post by ham on May 25, 2015 7:05:00 GMT
Ds2 who has ADHD was the same at home and at school. Six hours is a long time to be in control.i know some learn strategies to cope but a whole day.with ds2 as soon as his meds start to wear off you see the fidgets,the impulsivity etc return.
I do know some with attachment / trauma who can control it while at school and the when they are safe at home it all comes out which then makes it hard for people to believe how bad it is.the emotional strain of being at school is exhausting so could explain tiredness
But some ADHD meds can help with attachment / trauma.
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Post by lilyofthevalley on May 25, 2015 7:23:17 GMT
To be diagnosed with ADHD, it needs to be evident in more than one setting, and, for a child of school age, that will normally be at home and at school. However it is possible to have a situation where the school is underreporting/denying the problem. I experienced this with my two children and it made it very difficult for me to get the children diagnosed and treated. The children attended the small village school which had composite classes. It became clear to me that the headteacher did not want to be seen to not be coping. His stock response to me was that he had come across children with worse behavioural problems. So his reports back to CAMHS appeared to negate ADHD. However his reports back to CAMHS were not in accord with the children's actual school reports, mainly filled in by the teachers. Reading those, it was obvious that the children were suffering from ADHD. The teachers were complaining about their lack of concentration, distractability and hyperactive behaviour. So I produced the written school reports for the psychiatrists.
Another problem you can encounter, including from psychiatrists, is thinking that, if you suffer from ADHD, you are unable to concentrate at all. This is not true. If you are very interested in something you can concentrate very well, you can even hyperfocus. My AS loved computer games and would really concentrate on them. The psychiatrists who watched him doing this thought he therefore did not have ADHD. They were wrong. This is a well known feature of ADHD.
Due to these problems I really struggled to get the children diagnosed. I had a four year battle and eventually took the children to England to get them diagnosed. My AD, now aged 29, has just started treatment again for her ADHD and has been prescribed Concerta. She often talks about how her ADHD affects her at work as well as at home.
Lily x
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Post by milly on May 25, 2015 7:58:11 GMT
I don't think so although I do recall reading that fear can make an ADHD child comply. Certainly my ADHD child will comply more if told off eg.if shouted at. But the effect only lasts for so long, not sure if a child could keep it up all day. Dd is similar at school to home - her behaviours have been noticed everywhere she has been, from nursery upwards. (life would be so much easier if they weren't!) In fact she is better at home, or perhaps just less pressured. It's confused though by anxiety - that makes her do weird, anti social things.
Dd2 is an angel at school and far more devillish at home - I have never suspected her of having ADHD - she can be unfocused and hyper at home but it is mood related, not persistent. She has talked about holding stuff in at school, but overall I don't think she has a huge amount of stuff to hold in as she is a good learner and has good social skills.
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Post by daffin on May 25, 2015 9:54:15 GMT
Thanks all for your replies.
Sounds like ADHD is probably off the radar, then. Let's see what happens in Year 1!
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Post by monkey on May 25, 2015 20:10:39 GMT
Hi Daffin
Have school completed a Connors questionnaire? When LO was in Reception her teacher said she definitely didn't have ADHD. She then completed a Connors and it came out positive. We've just had a similar conversation with school. Head says LO doesn't have ADHD but agreed that she's impulsive, can't stay in her seat, has a very short attention span and is "busy" !!!!!
We're going to be pursuing meds even if we're told it's all attachment behaviours (again!). Meds may not work but it's got to be worth a try.
I hope you get some answers soon.
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Post by serrakunda on May 25, 2015 22:05:17 GMT
I don't know very much about ADHD, but I do know that Simba keeps a lid on a lot of stuff at school. He is a model pupil, behaves well, follows instructions, listens, concentrates, does very well, is popular and makes friends.
And then he comes home. So I think it's highly possible that monkey boy is holding something in/back at school and letting it go at home.
I can't remember if you have looked into the sensory processing stuff? As difficult as Simba can be sometimes, he would be far worse if he didn't do all his activities, swimming, tennis, running, trampoline. Kstar has had some really positive changes in behaviour since looking at this and developing a sensory diet.
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Post by gilreth on May 26, 2015 8:10:27 GMT
From my experience of growing up with someone with ADHD it does tend to manifest itself everywhere. But I know a number of children with attachment and/or sensory issues who are over compliant in one setting and hyper in another. My elder nephew being one.
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Post by sooz on May 26, 2015 11:57:28 GMT
I'd say explore the sensory side....bit like a sneeze, holding it all in means it's going to go mad when you can let it out.
Funnily enough the first time Snooz met a particular psychiatrist he noted 'quite a lot of hyperactivity' going on in the consulting room. I told him that it was because we were discussing Snooz and he didn't like it so was trying to distract us. Second time meeting Snooz, who was much calmer, he said I was right it wasn't adhd......but I can see why he thought it could have been.
its difficult for you if mb isn't displaying issues at school (to the untrained eye) but would suggest getting him assessed in the school setting by someone who gets sensory issues. Xx
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Post by runmum on May 26, 2015 16:11:15 GMT
Hi Daffin
Might be best to keep ADHD on the radar as 80/85% of children respond well to the drugs - and it's immediate relief and the "effect size" is big! However it is true that diagnostically you cannot have ADHD if the problems only occur in one environment - in our case school denied there was a problem but time has told a different story.
As I have said many times on this forum our kids tend to have more than 1 thing so you get muddy water. I agree very much with Lilly of the Valley. Our school eventually completed a Connors questionnaire (the diagnostic tool) which showed our Monkey boy did have ADHD when evaluated by our Psychiatrist but at exactly the same time school were telling us they don't experience any problems with him at school at all. We have repeatedly challenged this and now in year 4 we have a lovely graph that shows that he has made virtually no academic progress - so what is he doing at school? When we go in for sports day etc I see ADHD and that's even if I stand at a distance - I also see that the teacher is not noticing!!!!!! School also say he eats all his lunch but his weight loss tells a different story. I really think that not noticing is a big thing.
That said I am in no doubt at all that our monkey boy is worse at home. This we think is more the trauma and attachment - as someone else on this forum eloquently put it "we are invaders of a role (i.e. parent) that has been so damaging for our children in the past." Our children want to accept the love we give but fear doing so because subconsciously they think it is bound to be taken away. So the relationships at home are the ones to be tested beyond all others and home is the place of maximum stress. So at home we have ADHD plus sensory attachment issues at school they get just ADHD without the sensory attachment stuff and they don't notice half the ADHD stuff because they have 30 kids.
If your monkey boy is making normal academic progress and not getting into trouble in terms of managing his relationships with the other children then ADHD seems unlikely but as he is so young you might not really know that yet. We also got an OT from the post adoption team to do an observation - she saw lots of squirming and fidgeting and low level disruption and attachment seeking behaviours that the teachers did not notice at all - even when working with him in a small group.
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Post by mrbop on May 26, 2015 17:11:51 GMT
"So the relationships at home are the ones to be tested beyond all others and home is the place of maximum stress."May I suggest that home is actually the place of maximum safety and maximum risk which is why we, the parents, cop it after a tough day holding it together in the company of all these dangerous adults? Maximum safety: they know at one level that they are here to stay and they are (unconsciously) destruction testing our commitment to love them no matter what to see if we really mean it unlike every other untrustworthy adult who has crossed their paths and also safe because we're not going to condemn them for showing their "real" selves. Maximum risk because in below that they are truly terrified we might just crack in the face of it all, be just like all the rest of adults they have ever met, and they might have to leave - literally the stuff of nightmares for them. In terms of ADHD, whilst we haven't had that challenge there is huge overlap between that and attachment disorder. Not exactly stuffed either way but it does tend to explain all the ADHD-like stuff at home yet presenting well to "strangers" who can include other members of the family and who, at the risk of repetition, are perceived as a threat to their existence as far as they are concerned. If I had a pound for everyone who told us how lucky we were as our kids didn't have any sign of attachment disorder I'd probably retire.... 
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Post by caledonia on May 28, 2015 8:32:00 GMT
hi
I have been and continue to be in this situation. School says there is nothing wrong with her and she is a lovely happy quiet child. At home she bounces off walls, never shuts up, can't sit still, fiddles with everything, argues constantly and is generally a definite 'presence' in the house - in fact its like living in a war zone most of the time.
Our consultant wanted to go into school and assess DD as he did not believe what they were reporting, based on his observations of her and our feedback in the Connors etc. questionnaires but the LA have a policy of not allowing people in to observe children!
DD has consistently said she does not feel safe in school and tries to be as quiet as possible so she does not get a row. I can tell when she has had a bad day at school within two minutes of her coming home by the ramping up of her behaviour at home.
Our consultant says that children who are traumatised can, and often do 'act' in in school and explode when they come home because as Mr Bop says, they feel safe. We are still going through our assessment so we have no formal diagnosis yet but I do believe that the combination of ADHD and the other issues our children deal with mean that a child can have ADHD and that this is not recognised at school.
DD says she behaves at school but as home is a safe place where she can kick off and know that I love her and will never leave her. She openly says she has to be nice and happy and polite anywhere else or people will not like her.
The problem with all the overlapping issues our children have makes it difficult to determine hat exactly is going on and there are so many similarities between ADHD and attachment that it makes things harder. The one thing about ADHD is how successful medication is at helping children which is why I think this should be considered more often to see if medication can help.
I think if you got ten 'experts' ina room to diagnose one child they would all come up with different diagnoses depending on their specialisms and that doesn't help us.
Good luck with working it all out.
Cale
x
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Post by corkwing on May 28, 2015 9:01:04 GMT
Our son Mackerel has an ADHD diagnosis. They put him on Ritalin and the symptoms became many times worse. For that reason, I DON'T believe that he has ADHD. I think that he has very similar behaviours but not ADHD.
I do believe that being damaged by drugs in utero, living with high levels of stress both in utero and after birth, having inadequate parenting, being neglected and/or abused and/or witnessing abuse, and potentially having genetic conditions or predispositions passed down to the child CAN result in behaviours that resemble ADHD.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 8:37:46 GMT
My DD's were absolute angels at infant/junior school. I used to get comments about there lovely manners, how well, behaved they were etc, but EDD in particular used to fall apart the minute she came through the front door, as if the effort of behaving all day was just too much. No one bar her father and I ever saw this behaviour so no one believed us. Y Roll on to age 14 and she is now in care, has been diagnosed HFA (Aspergers) and while she doesn't have ADHD, I do notice as she has gotten older she is all over the place, extremely young for her age, laughs inappropriately, struggles to concentrate on anything for any length of time and if her old school saw reports on her, they would not believe we were talking about the same child. Puberty and my marriage breakdown seem to have triggered it and now she is in care, even the FC describes her as a "complex child" and she has asked for training to handle her behaviours as she is struggling with DD's manipulation and control. Trust your own instincts, you know your child better than anyone, but it is hard when your child behaves better for others and it can knock your confidence as it does make you feel like you are the one who is the problem. It's only when our children are living with others that they let their guard down and others get to see what we've been living with for years without people believing us. Yes it's nice to finally be vindicated, but at what cost to both ours and our childs mental health/relationship? If only the profs could move in and live with us for a week/month to see the real child. Would save so much time wasting not to mention money as they speculate and mis diagnose and dare I say it, blame our parenting. |
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Post by caledonia on May 29, 2015 10:27:23 GMT
Our consultant is going to exactly that jmk - he is going to come and spend time in the house with us - from 8am until 10pm - to see how she does, and longer if required as he feels this is the best way to see her at her best worst. DD has for the last 1.5 - 2 years been increasingly unable to control herself in front of my parents, her god mother and my best friend and so others are seeing it too and the consultant is taking all of this into consideration.
I agree there are so many things that look, in part, like other things that sometimes its hard to get a diagnosis. In our case, I just want to know that if there is medication that could help her, she gets access to it,. and if there are specific parenting skills I need to help manage it, I am aware of them and can implement them. Also, and I accept that this is my issue I want to be able to explain to people why we do things certain ways, and why for example homework is not an option for us at the moment without people judging me. I know I should not worry about what others think, but this is something I struggle with especially when things are really tough with DD. If others understand there is a diagnosis that is causing the problems, it will hopefully make them more understanding - and I do need understanding when dealing with this on my own. It is not helpful when teachers tell DD is is perfectly able to do homework and she should stop making life hard for me. Yes she is capable of doing homework from an academic perspective but not from an emotional perspective and she can't help making life hard at home, its where she feels safe to vent which gives her the ability to function in public.
Cale
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Post by corkwing on May 29, 2015 10:54:12 GMT
Our consultant is going to... come and spend time in the house with us - from 8am until 10pm - to see how she does, and longer if required as he feels this is the best way to see her at her best worst. That sounds brilliant! Hope it goes really well. |
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 12:23:21 GMT
Wow Cale that sounds fantastic.
Is this the consultant you are paying privately for?
I can't see any LA forking out for a full days/nights fees, amazing!
Any child can hold it together for the average one hour meeting, but a whole day in their own home environment, well that's a tall order.
Let us know how it goes.
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Post by kstar on May 30, 2015 7:41:18 GMT
As a teacher, I have seen many ADHD children behave differently in different settings (so for example being fantastic in more practical lessons where they can zone in and focus, but a nightmare when expected to sit and listen) but I can't say we have ever had an ADHD child who copes all day every day. Often it's in social settings that the issues show up, they struggle more with unstructured time.
Sensory issues are well worth a look. The friend of mine who is a specialist OT and advised me on how to get started with Starlet called it compulsive compliance - they are intelligent enough to know they can't sensory seek at school because they don't want to upset/ anger/ disappoint their teacher, but their body and brain is craving sensory stimulation (or craving peace from it, depending if they are seeking or avoidant). The pressure mounts all day and often our children are so tense by the time they get back to a safe space that it's like taking the lid off a pressure cooker in full steam - they explode and we are the lucky ones who get to deal with the rage.
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Post by lankelly on May 31, 2015 6:41:21 GMT
Ill be back later this is fascinating right up our street....
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Post by caledonia on Jun 1, 2015 12:29:14 GMT
Yes jmk that is our private consultant. He said exactly that - she will be able to hold it together for some of the time but not for all of the time and so he should get to see her in her glorious completeness!
DD can focus when its something she is interested in but she is not still - she jiggles, moves from side to side, sits at odd angles to tables (hates sitting face on to a table in general -s something the school flagged up) and she has real issues with her friends which school see but don't attribute to ADHD or anything else in particular - she is just one of these girls that finds friendships in big settings difficult. On a 1 to 1 she is great with her friends. We had a friend join us in centre parcs last year and they did not fall out once. Put them into the Sunday school situation and they fell out in about half an hour - but made up again.
Kstar - the compulsive compliance sounds about right for DD. she does say she holds it in a school so she doesn't get a row there. The consultant is talking about oppositional defiance disorder being a possible diagnosis and it sounds, to some extent like the compulsive compliance in a funny way.
I'll keep you all posted!
Cale
x
Ps Daffin - I hope I have not hijacked your post!
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Post by runmum on Jun 2, 2015 11:12:37 GMT
Wow this is all fascinating - how wonderful to have a full day assessment - that will also show your parenting skills which saves the "oh if only you had clear boundaries and didn't let them run rings round you rubbish" we often have to put up with.
Just to say in case misunderstood I agree with Mr Bob if I understand him correctly - yes home is the safest place and they know that but it's so hard for them to cope with it that it creates stress - it jars with their subconscious sense of what to expect which comes from the early years. So for my kids yes home is safe but that feels stressful as they really want to sink into it and enjoy it but just cannot dare to. Although that is starting to change particularly with Monkey Boy since he started ADHD meds. I am quite sure he has all the attachment difficulties and almost certainly FAS too - (although we cannot access the necessary tests to prove it) I think in our case the sensory needs blur in with the ADHD and MB becomes more sensory seeking again as he comes down from the ADHD meds in the evening - which of course adds to the behavioural stuff. He remains no angel but seems to have had a jedi mind swap over the past week and is more resistant than outright defiant and has even started sleeping without needing me to lie on the floor for hours - which I have had to do for over 2 years!! No idea if this will carry on it might just be a blip but we live in hope.
Hope you are continuing to make progress Daffin! xx
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Post by lankelly on Jun 2, 2015 19:17:05 GMT
Yes yes yes...so many of these stories ring true for us too. Control is largely ok at school, lost at home. Sensory stuff when out and about rolling around checkouts, supermarket aisles, licking t.v. ,spins, stimming, echolalia etc.All to varying degrees at different times. Acute outbursts of verbal, physical aggression,
I go through different beliefs of causes. Get nowhere. Our consultants stick with adhd. They know it's more complex but can't /won't label fasd , attachment disorders, asd etc. He at least tries meds and now prescribes it after lunch so he copes with transition better to come home. Incidentally Corkwing, Ritalin is not always the drug for all. We tried three meds to get this far over two and half yrs.
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Post by abiee on Jun 21, 2015 21:26:32 GMT
My BS has ADHD and he is the same in every setting
AD has diagnoses of FASD and attachment disorder. I can see some of her behaviours look similar to ADHD but she fluctuates according to time and place
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