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Post by sockthing on Oct 23, 2014 9:26:46 GMT
Hello cheerleading team (parents still away!!)
Please can you point me in the right direction.
Kippers needs at school are largely sensory and emotional anxiety - he is being monitored by a paediatrician for suspected Social communication Disorder, and also has attachment issues. He needs predictability especially in new situations and transitions, struggles a little socially, and needs sensory issues, is scared of new people especially authority figures and if unexpected. He is still doing half days - I pick him up after lunch.
The school have been trying hard and very open, easy to talk to and liaise with, and very well meaning, but a few issues have been thrown up that need addressing and I'm not sure how.
Here are some good examples of the sorts of needs Kipper is showing:
Last week they noticed he was anxious because before lunch they lined them all up to squirt their hands with antibacterial gel instead of washing them in the sink like normal. So a deviation from he normal pattern/routine and it was unpredictable to kipper and he seems very anxious to make sure lunch did follow and didn't get overlooked.
This week he has had supply teachers 3 days out of 4. The Monday and Wednesday the school were great - warned me in advance, and have me photos of the supply teachers so I could prep him. He apparently4 seemed to cope "fine", however on arrival on Monday he was clearly (to me) initially scared of the ST, edging round the furthest edge of the room to get to the TA, while intently watching the supply. Then at home he suddenly told me that the new teacher knew that he was going home after lunch. So it had clearly been on his mind as a worry that he might accidentally get left at school!
He then yesterday out of the blue at home asked me more than once if there was supply teacher today. I assured him that no, it was his usual teacher, and that she would have told us if there was supply - got to school.....guess what??? His teacher greets us and tells us that she's got to be elsewhere and there is a supply teacher again. kipper for the first time looked like he might cry and leaned into me, avoiding eye contact.
Thing is - if K is VISIBLY upset it means he is REALLY upset.! But the class TA assured me that yesterday he was fine with supply.
Soooooo......
Thing is I understand how it happened - his normal teachers are job shares, and his teacher yesterday was at her mums funeral so understandable that it got forgotten and the Thursday teacher obviously wasn here yesterday.
But there's not much consistency for Kipper - even when things run to plan he has one teacher for 2 days, and another teacher for the 3 days. The class TA is there every day but only in the mornings, so when he stays in the afternoon he will have a different TA - someone else to get used to. There's too many fingers in the kipper pie! and what I think he needs is a central person looking out for him and a consistent presence...someone that he always knows is always there, and that I know can be one person that thinks for him and knows what sort of things may stress him and what to prep him for.
I rang the school to ask who the SENCO is for his class, and they gave me a name I have never heard of let alone met, who is the SENCO for the whole school.
How do I go about sorting this out?
Should I have been give a meeting with this SENCO? I am also concerned because although the Head and his 2 usual teachers are being very kind and well meaning, it's a bit difficult as I can never talk to them all at once so don't know who knows what. Also the class TAs are not in the meetings I've had so I don't know what they know either.
Help!?
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Post by sockthing on Oct 23, 2014 9:27:42 GMT
I think they are really underestimating how brave he is being all the time. : (
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Post by sockthing on Oct 23, 2014 9:35:02 GMT
Oh, and the Head did tell me before he started that they've got money in the pot for him to have a TA just for him, but she needed to see how he copes first. Fair enough - but I believe he has immense capability to repress his emotions and is unlikely to meltdown at school.
At what point do I push for a TA, if at all? He is very capable on the surface, dressing himself quite well, doing well with his phonics, talking to the adults and children. Bright and interested.
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Post by corkwing on Oct 23, 2014 9:38:10 GMT
Some possibilities:
1) He can't do school at all, really. Home school him.
2) He can do school, but not this school. Look for a different school that has the consistency that he needs - possibly a special school.
3) He can do this school, but only if they change. Work out what he needs and discuss with school how they're going to implement it.
4) He can do this school as it is, but needs something more. Like working through with him that there is a "big" routine that will stay the same even if there is a "small" change, such as washing hands. Like working with him about his anxieties and what he's feeling and why and how he can view it differently (though I think age 4 is probably a bit young for that!)
5) He can do this school. He just needs to work through his anxieties and man up. (Personally I'm not keen on that idea, but there are many people in this world who will probably think that way and I'm just trying to work through all of the options).
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Post by corkwing on Oct 23, 2014 9:39:41 GMT
Our posts crossed. I think that the TA just for him sounds like a great idea and will do a lot to clarify where he is.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 9:45:57 GMT
Sounds like school are trying to do thsir best and they won't always be able to provide pictures of supply teachers in advance, because by their very nature, they often fill in a very short notice if a teacher is sick for example and it was unforeseen.
I think you need to have a meeting with the head Senco and maybe before hand, type up your own fact/information sheet of what you are happy to share about what Kipper needs etc. You could then give this sheet to the Senco and ask her to pass copies to everyone who will be working with DS, including supply teachers when they come on board so that everyone is aware and are singing off the same hymn sheet so to speak. That way they can't say they were unaware at a later date and at least K will get some consistancy and feel they understand his needs a bit better.
If you do this sheet yourself it will be far more comprehensive and thorough rather than relying on Senco to pass on her understanding of what you've told her.
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Post by flutterby on Oct 23, 2014 12:33:26 GMT
I went to an event run by our LA the other week, all to do with adopted children at school and how to best help them. It was run by a lady who works with children in care only and who is passionate that their services should be extended to adopted children. Her advice was as follows: do not ask to speak to the senco but the LSA (pronounced "Elsa") trained teacher/staff. This is now mandatory for any school where there are children in care, so chances are they have one.
Make them aware that your child used to be in care and that therefore ALL issues, which you would typically expect for a LAC child, will also apply to your child. Just because he is now adopted does not mean that this would have fixed his issues.
Therefore the pupil premium they receive for Kipper needs to be spent on ensuring that Kipper has his much needed central person.
Schools have also now been awarded extra funding to provide any student who needs this with up to 16 hours one on one support. Obviously, they do not need to know at this point that you know this, but those 16 hours plus the pupil premium on top of that (2 seperate pots and pupil premium is for your child only, it must not be used for other children), should get him the support he needs.
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Post by sockthing on Oct 23, 2014 12:54:24 GMT
Yes I agree school are trying their best. They are a small,village school with limited experience in SEN but with a very flexible attitude and friendly approach. I was actually really impressed they managed to give me pictures for the first 2 supply teachers. I do believe it's the right school for kipper and he enjoys some aspects of being at school - social contact, interesting activities, high structure, recognises children from the village.
They've also been very happy to talk to PAS at the start of the transition , but PAS see only the attachment side of stuff really and don't seem clued up about ASD traits.
Am a bit confused too now - PAS came today and I mentioned it. She's convinced that an individual TA is not a good idea for K, because of his attachment difficulties , as he struggles with closeness in relationships and she thinks it would stress him to be managing a new 1:1 relationship. I think she's got a valid point but I'm confused now, as that contradicts his need for consistency and a "safe" adult that knows his quirks in detail.
Thanks flutterby - that's really helpful info and will give it some thought.
Toko - I never knew you were so athletic!!! : ))
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Post by flutterby on Oct 23, 2014 13:01:24 GMT
Hm, not sure PAS has got this right. Surely, if he has attachment issues to do with closeness, maybe the best way to help with this would be to help him form safe relationships? Otherwise, he should not have been adopted but handed from foster carer to foster carer to ensure he would not have to "endure" meaningful contact? Sorry, if I sound sarcastic, but I really find this kind of thinking a bit strange.
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Post by corkwing on Oct 23, 2014 13:08:46 GMT
I agree with Flutterby: sounds strange. I kind of get the thinking, but I'm not sure I agree. I'd guess it's about wanting him to attach to you and not to form secondary attachments until that's more secure. Yes, but then the poor child is away from his primary attachment figure for huge amounts of time and I would think that no secondary attachment figure is going to make him even less able to cope with a stressful situation.
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Post by chotimonkey on Oct 23, 2014 13:12:25 GMT
oh poor little kipper... he's had a run of bad luck with consistency with his teacher. he soundslike he is being so so brave!
I think a kipper fact sheet is a great idea, it doesn't need a lot on his background, but his current worries and sensory issues and how they present, and some of his 'tells' that he is feeling anxious and how you deal with them at home.
I don't know about how transition into primary is done in general, but I can't help but think a session or two with the whole class about
the routine of the day, maybe with a visual timetable somewhere in the classroom that could be sought out by any child needing reassurance or a reminder, might help a lot of children
covering the sorts of small changes won't change these fundamentals,
when we introduced our new yr 7s (who still felt small tiny and afraid and they were 11!) we used to do lots of gentle games and quizzes every day in form time superficially so the children could win house poibts, but really so that we could cover what would happen every day in the first few weeks and try to alleviate worries before they came up
def a TA or a safe person, its not an emotional connection r relationship, but kind of a fixture of the school that he sees as safe,
could he identify theplace in the classroom he feels most safe, most primary classrooms have the home/ school corner for reception children and a cosylittle nook where he could go if feeling overwhelmed, to comfort himself and also alert the teacher to the fact
could the teacher have an object that he/ she gives him if they notice he is worrying that is a safe object, but also signifies thqat they have to finish whatever it is they are doing with the whole class, but thery have noticed he is feeling worried, want to hekp and will do in a minute, it doesn't have to be an obvious time out card... but maybe a small/discreet sensory toy that he could fiddle with till he can be helped.
I really feel for your little man
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Post by sockthing on Oct 23, 2014 13:16:06 GMT
Yes, I feel very conflicted about it.
I think she was implying that not having 1:1 frees him up to focus on closeness at home. She's very well read in Dan Hughes, Louise bomber etc.
When he was at nursery and he had a close relationship with his key worker he did sometimes seem confused about where his loyalties lay when I went and picked him up IYSWIM. Which made me think maybe she's right and not having 1:1 gives him clarity about who his "real" safe adult is (I.e mummy).
Definitely would be interested in others opinions on this.
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Post by donatella on Oct 23, 2014 15:29:23 GMT
But maybe then she's forgetting/not realising the asd aspect of not coping with change?
My son needs consistency, he needs to know the routine, who's doing what, when and how. He's struggking atm as he's full time in his new unit - it's am asd unit and that's where their expertise lies BUT he's far more complex than that and there layers to his behaviour that I don't think are there with the securely attached children in his class who have the same dx. You need to consider the overall picture and whilst I guess I see where she's coming from, she's missing a huge chunk of the jigsaw.
Our LAs SEN dept has specialist teachers who can advise on appropriate strategies and work with children in school. Dd is in mainstream with support but she also has a specialist teacher in twice a week to work with her on social skills, friendship, play, relationships ....or whatever school and I think she's struggling with.
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Post by larsti on Oct 23, 2014 16:57:57 GMT
(((((Sockthing)))))
Just picking up on the 'Kipper factsheet' idea. I know you can make little booklets (I think I might have seen one on Cerebra website?)for SEN children to have 'all about me' type thing. And recently came across something (for older people though) called, I think 'Say it once'. So maybe others know what I am talking about and might be able to point you in the right direction.
Larsti x
PS it was Cerebra! www.cerebra.org.uk/English/gethelp/personalportfolios/Pages/default.aspx |
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Post by larsti on Oct 23, 2014 17:05:15 GMT
just posted on children with disabilities section re the 'all about me' thing. Don't know if its any good for Kipper?
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Post by esty (archive) on Oct 23, 2014 17:08:17 GMT
I think not having 1:1 TA would be possible if there was one teacher for the whole week who gave that consistency. As there isn't I think a full time TA for Kipper is a must. He can spread his wings after a couple of years at school. For now he needs to experience all the irregularities of school with one person. I would be saying how well the school is doing and that they've mangaed far better than I was ever imagining and now after a few weeks in, the need for a few more tweaks has become apparent. One of those tweaks being a full time TA to cover for the teachers job sharing. Can you suggest you'd go in at lunchtime for a meeting with as many of them as possible to go over last few weeks, emphasising what has worked and what else could help?
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Post by leo on Oct 23, 2014 22:01:43 GMT
Firstly, school should be producing their own One Page Profile for Kipper that is kept in an accessible place in the classroom for all staff (supply included) to see. It should include his main needs, what works well for him and what makes things worse for him.
Secondly, only my opinion but... I would seriously consider taking him out of school for at least this Reception year. 4 years old is very young to be starting school even in optimal circumstances. I think given how much your relationship with Kipper has at times this year really begun to blossom, that you should make the most of this and give him the time and nurture he needs from the one person who knows him the best in the world. I also think that Reception classrooms can be tricky for even the most confident, academic and socially adept children; for a child such as Kipper they are a confusing muddle of noise, lack of structure, constant movement and changes, no time to build a personal relationship with any adult (and if he has delayed social skills then no chance of making one with any other children) and a bewildering amount of activities to choose from that can easily overstimulate or panic a child.
If he is to stay in school then definitely push for a 1:1. He needs a trusted adult in school so that he is not cast into desolation and fear for six hours a day. This adult though needs to understand that their role is to support your attachment to Kipper, not undermine it. They need to be saying to him, 'I wonder what Mummy is doing right now, I bet she's thinking of you', 'Mummy will be having her lunch now, just like you are', 'Mummy will be on her way to pick you up from school now' and making sure that the transition to and from you at the start and end of school are well managed - with time to say goodbye rather than wandering off from you in a daze.
One thing that worked for us was to have a scarp book with photos of us at home with basic captions of 'Mummy loves you very much', 'We enjoyed sledging down the hill together didn't we'... It was then kept in their drawers at school so they could go and look at it whenever they needed to - and their LSAs would get it and look through it with them at any time they were wobbling. We updated it each holiday time so it almost acted as a 'news' book too - but actually just helped them to understand that our relationship was continuing and growing.
The difficulty with him feeling so anxious and unsafe at school is that he will begin to detach from you as he will be cast into panic and begin to think you are abandoning him/his needs (worst case scenario - but borne out here!)
It is good that the school are doing their best and are being understanding - but maybe Kipper just isn't ready yet?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 7:05:10 GMT
Leo has just covered what I was about to add and far more eloquently than I would but I think if Kipper is staying at school, you should insist that his pupils premium is used towards having a 1:1 and as Leo suggested this is his safe person while away from you. 1:1 will be like a school attachment figure but she can reinforce that you are his mum, a bit like a work/home relationship and if you are working closely with this person you can meet at the beginning and end of every day for handover chats letting each other know what's going on for Kipper, how his day/night has been etc. Kipper will see this relationship between you and his 1:1 and how well you are communicating his needs back and forth and this will help him feel safe and listened to.
I do agree with others though, he might benefit from not starting school until he is 5, but with the right support in place, he could probably do it as the school do sound like they are trying and that's half the battle.
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Post by sockthing on Oct 24, 2014 8:41:22 GMT
Thanks all - really appreciate the sounding board.
School themselves have suggested using a visual timetable tailored just for him, specifically regarding the transition, so that's good. I did give them a sheet with his needs on - anxieties and how to recognise them (eg sniffing his hands) , triggers for anxiety. Will have a look and review it in case it needs more detail.
I also gave them a photo album with pictures of mummy and daddy and K doing fun things, special times, achievements etc...but we got into a stupid confusion about how best to use it. The Head thought it best not to have it in the classroom because the other kids would crowd round wanting a look, so she wanted to use it in his nurture group, but I think it best just to have it on hand in class.
In actual fact I'm finding hard to know how much anxiety is attachment related and what is more an ASD thing around needing things to be predictable. He is cheerful going to school, rarely complains about going (he would complain at home) and is cheerful coming out though we are also on the receivIng end of explosive angry behaviour. I think he likes school and wants to be part of stuff - he volunteers chatty info about what they have done etc, sings me songs, shows me his phonics. But is worried by changes in plan, new people, different ways of doing something they normally do a certain way. Etc. Worried by WHY they do things. So a complicated mix of enjoyment, and high stress levels.
I don't believe taking him out of school is right for him actually, it's true he's borderline in terms of emotional readiness, but he is immensely sociable and if I took him out now he would be further confused, and also he gets bored and frustrated and angry if it's limited to just me and him and too much time at home. I also couldn't provide him with the interesting activities they do at school. It's very very hard to occupy him at home.
Oh I'm just rambling now and burbling!!
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Post by sockthing on Oct 24, 2014 8:48:25 GMT
Flutterby - what is LSA??
Dona - that's exactly the kind of practical info I need, thank you. I was wondering how it works in terms of correct ASD advice to the school. Who implements someone coming in, did you request it for DD or did school? I think you're right too that PAS just don't quite get the Soc.Comm side of things. We came into conflict over the Theraplay because of it. She's not sceptical as such, but doesn't "get it".
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 12:39:18 GMT
LSA is Learning Support Assistant same as TA teaching assistant.
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Post by donatella on Oct 24, 2014 13:32:00 GMT
For DD I requested help pre her dx and when she was in her old school. I went to our SEN dept and spoke direct. DDs old school were hopeless and didn't know (or care) what support was available. So I found out and asked school to sort it. Speak to someone in Learning Support - they'll be able to tell you, explain the difficulties.
We found getting anyone to look further than attachment/trauma was really difficult but in reality I think there's likely to be quite a lot of undiagnosed mental health problems in birth families. Why are they self medicating? Why can't they parent? Is it just coincidence that two of mine - unrelated by birth - are asd? I don't think so.
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Post by daffin on Oct 25, 2014 5:25:20 GMT
I think having a consistent safe adult is crucial for Kipper. I think the SW is wrong!
We are pushing for this for Monkey Boy but he presents so well that its going to be a real uphill struggle. The school is also a small village school and is poorly resourced. But like your school they are open and willing to learn.
MB has to have a school Based Plan for 3 terms before the school can apply for an EHCP, apparently. And an EHCP is necessary to get the resources for 1:1. This seems like a long wait to me, especially since a SBP is only going to be drafted next half term. But - my understanding, I don't KNOW- this is because of the new rules surrounding the new SEN system of EHCPs etc.
As of last week, we have given the school a short anonymised report about MB experiences in his BF. I was advised to do this by my therapist, who acts as a mentor in all thing Monkey Boy, as she is a specialist in childhood trauma. She felt it was really important, as he has such a terrible early life and (although we know from his behaviour at home) presents so well at school. I have also had my therapist go into the school. She has a meeting with the Head and briefed him on trauma and attachment issues. He knew a bit from previous training but only a bit. As a result, he's sending a member of staff on a special one day training course on attachment. I think having a one to one between the head and a knowledgable professional is helpful (even better if the SENCO, TAs and class teacher can attend, too - in our case that wasn't possible). I wonder if the Virtual School covers adopted children where you are. They do here but they only know about attachment, not trauma, so I didn't think they were the right people to advise MBs school.
I have felt uncomfortable about sharing such personal information with the school but I feel that I can't ask them to understand him if I don't. Kipper is obviously a different child with a different history but it may be that sharing something like 'The Wall' (completed for Kipper) with them would help??? Plus specialist information about his (evolving) dx.
Do go and meet the SENCO. I don't know what your school is like, but our SENCO is THE crucial person re accessing support and informing other staff.
Finally, does your school have Nurture Groups? We've asked our school to do these with MB, as he's so poor at identifying and naming his emotions. We have also suggested they look into bringing Thrive into the school (specially trained staff who lead sensory, Theraplay style activities for small groups or individuals. Designed by neuroscientists and supported by research which seems to prove benefits).
https://www.thriveapproach.co.uk
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Post by rosie on Oct 25, 2014 21:00:03 GMT
I would definitely push for 1-1 support. It sounds as though Kipper really needs a key figure in school who is there every day, to help with his anxiety. If they are talking about a visual timetable this works best when an adult talks it through with the child and as the activity is completed the picture card is taken away or posted in a box. Without a 1-1 this is harder to achieve as a class LSA might well be busy with another child. If he had 1-1 they could talk through changes that occur like the hand washing and pre-empt situations that might be difficult for him. One child we had in school last year coped so much better with a photograph of Mum. It was put up near her visual timetable. Mum cleverly took a picture which included her sitting at work on her computer with a screen saver showing the child. Her LSA kept reinforcing that although Mum wasn't with her Mum was thinking about her because of the photo; it worked very well for that particular child. A 1-1 could also work with Kipper with all his activities encouraging him and preventing anxiety; and set up turn taking games and activities to help his social skills and relationship with other children. Having that one person really helps children feel secure. What our LSAs do is to be available when needed but stand back a little when things are going well; but be around in case needed. It will also help with transition next year into year 1 if he has someone he knows really well. The LSA can help him make a book of his new class with photos and go with him for extra visits etc and hopefully if possible move up with him.I would definitely speak to the Senco and explain a little about his background and how it affects him. We had several children last year in reception with ASD and ASD tendencies and many other difficulties who have made very good progress with LSA support.I know the sw thinks this is not a good idea due to his attachment difficulties; but if he is only in school mornings he is still with you a much longer time over the week. Our dd when she was younger used to be awful at home if she didn't cope at school. (Still is sometimes) If kipper is anxious a lot of the time at school it is likely to affect him at home too. If he is calmer this is less likely to happen.
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