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Post by kizim on Jun 26, 2014 20:58:05 GMT
...and Enigma is still out there somewhere, hopefully ok but İ am resisting checking on her in any way. İ am confused about how İ feel....because İ mostly feel ok. İts like a toothache that is always there but still İ can laugh and chat and get on with my life. İ have not told anyone apart from 2 of my most discreet friends and all of you
İ am confused about how İ feel about Enigma too... a mixture of anger and guilt...and some relief that she has göne because at least it isn't hanging over my head like the sword of Damocles. İt has happened. She has göne - again - and İ have survived.
Relief too because although her behaviour never reached the dizzy heights...or lows of some of your children...the constant low level disturbance that she created and that İ often handled badly...has göne and now İ can see just how far and how often İ had moved my goalposts to accept and get over her actions. We could go away for the night for example (if it wasnt the midle of the tourist season) because we know Whizz would behave but we could never leave Enigma because she would trick them or sneak out or sneak someone in.....
But İ do not understand what has happened to change my reaction. Even the last time (2weeks earlier) when she left İ was so upset but that time İ got contacted by the poice who informed me she wanted a restraining order...although she then stayed with the poice until İ came...argued with me and said she wanted Money to leave but then came home and said she didnt mean any of it....but for me she crossed a line that day..maybe thats why this time İ feel like packing her stuff and putting her things where İ donet have to see them....or am İ in denial?
Confused Kizim
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Post by esty (archive) on Jun 26, 2014 22:18:08 GMT
Not sure of correct response but gut feeling is stay with these present feelings and enjoy that freedom from stress and heightened awareness. The right way to go forward will show itself. Just be in the moment for now.
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Post by serrakunda on Jun 26, 2014 22:41:38 GMT
In denial about what? Your feelings? In the circumstances they seem perfectly rational to me. You are entitled to your own feelings, don't feel pressured into thinking you should feel a particular way. Only you know what has happened in the past, the pressure you have been under. don't think you should feel guilty about enjoying a less stressful life, even if only for a little while, and what that also means for your other child.
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Post by moo on Jun 27, 2014 5:32:43 GMT
Hugs kizim.... Stay strong {{}}
Thanx for the update.....
xx. moo. Xx
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Post by flutterby on Jun 27, 2014 5:37:59 GMT
Sending hugs, Kizim. Nowhere near where you are, my LO is still only 2, but you have done 16 years of modifying your behaviour and being the therapeutic parent. Despite all that, things have still turned out the way they have. Whilst I am sure that you have not completely washed your hands off Enigma, realization must have kicked in that this is how things are, that there is nothing you can do about it. You cannot force her to love you, to be ok, you have done your best and she is still kicking you in the teeth because of her sad history. She does not seem to be able to help herself, and you have given all you can. Now the rest is down to her.
You mention that you have often reacted badly. You probably have, but then would you have done so, if you had not had to deal with major eroding stress on a daily basis for years and years? That would wear anyone down. The profs go home at night, have regular debriefing, we don't.
I suppose what I am getting at is, go with your feelings, allow yourself to become you again, grief if this is what you feel, but do move on. Your younger child still needs you and it sounds like there is hope that there is a different future for Whizz.
If Enigma wants to come back, I would only let her come back with certain rules in place. The question is, would this be possible to implement? Possibly not and she might nod her head and then create chaos afterwards. It is so sad, but my gut feeling is you will have to put her things where you cannot see them. She is now responsible for her own actions, deemed almost a full adult under the law. You have done your bit, and who knows, with the right amount of distance between you, things might still turn out ok when she is getting older and hopefully wiser.
Sorry, I do not know you or your situation, so if I have just written utter nonsense, please do not think I am interfering. xx
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Post by kizim on Jun 27, 2014 18:21:32 GMT
Thanks for the responses...they really do help. Whizz and İ changed her room around today (Engima had been sharing her room as she wanted to be closer - ironically) we spoke a little about Enigma. Whizz said she was sad and angry and didnt know why Enigma behaved like this. İ do wonder what happens next. İ feel like İ am in a timeout space right now... a kinf of anti gravity limbo zone İ dont have to feel or do anything....but İ know this is not the end of the journey but like you say flutterby İ do not feel that bringing Enigma back with new house rules and lots of support is going to work...we seem to have been on that Wheel for at least 12 months now. Enigma wants to run her own life and feels she can do it without us. As soonas she is in the wrong - she hates to be wrong - or is criticised for anything off she runs. Coming back has to be her choice..and even then İm not sure...she delayed going to uni because she didnt feel ready to leave she said just a few weeks ago but İm not sure how honest that is İ think it may have been fear of failure. Going to plan some fun times for Whizz and our employees. Whizz wants a waterpark trip/karoake night/shopping trip and boat trip.
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Post by milly on Jun 28, 2014 7:29:07 GMT
At 13 my older dd is much younger and we're facing much more minor issues with her, but one thing I have realised recently is that, although I see the power of facing natural consequences, with dd I do tend to bail her out a lot. And I am thinking it isn't always the best way because she doesn't learn to take responsibility for her actions and choices. I don't do it nearly so much for dd2 even though she is younger because she is so much more competent generally.
So I am trying to break the habit which goes back through her childhood - of sorting things for her because she can't or won't do it herself. The fact is she has to learn to do it. Maybe that's where you are now too, at a higher level. So letting Enigma get on with it isn't about you having had enough or reaching some stage where you can do no more. The fact is she needs to (try to) learn to sort herself out and she knows where you are if she needs your help.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2014 9:42:39 GMT
Wise words from Toko and Milly (will be applying them myself soon with my DD's).
I think you have to accept Kisim that Enigma is now 18 and is legally considered to be an adult. We know of course that that age means nothing, that a lot of our children are much younger emotionally and a lot more vulnerable, but even then we have to cut them some slack at that age and allow them to make some mistakes for themselves. They have to learn to exist in the real world away from our protection in order to learn how to survive adulthood.
Maybe if you back off a little, let her spread her wings for a while, limit her funds, and try and appear a little nonchalent (although we know you'll be in bits inside) then maybe she will return of her own free will once the novelty of her new found freedom wears off (or when she runs out of money, clothes etc).
It is sooooo hard letting go at the best of times, but maybe you need to learn to let her go a little, hoping and praying she keeps herself safe of course (I assume she is taking protection?).
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Post by kizim on Jun 28, 2014 13:06:06 GMT
So much of what is being said resonates. Milly : İ became a very overprotective Mum to Enigma altho like you İ am not like this with Whizz - she has never been as needy or maybe she just got overlooked and got on with it... but all my protecting/diverting/changing/supporting/fighting for her/fighting with her/persuading/moving home-school-lifestyle - did not prevent Enigma's problems from intensifying. İ think İ have been in denial too. Neither of my dd's have letters after their names - they are not statemented or offically declared ADd/ASD etc so it has been easier for me to believe those minör issues would improve or at worst remain minör. Not so. Although Enigma has made great strides and turned herself into a good student, is outwardly compliant, articulate, friendly her desire to lead a secret life guarded by lies, huge anger and deception has increased. She doesnt just lie to us, she lies to her few friends too so nobody really knows the real Enigma. So sad. JMK 'Maybe if you back off a little, let her spread her wings for a while, limit her funds, and try and appear a little nonchalent (although we know you'll be in bits inside) then maybe she will return of her own free will once the novelty of her new found freedom wears off (or when she runs out of money, clothes etc). ' We have no contact at the moment. She blocked us from her föne and fb and we have made no attempt to get a msj to her by any other means. İ dont know if she will interpret our silence as anger - it is a bit on my part - or as acceptance. She only has the Money she took with her but İ assume she has a summer job now - that will be a shock she Works for us normally and has a much easier time than most. Tokoloshe 'But once we've done what we can, we need to get ourselves to a place where our lives go on WHATEVER they do, because that is the only way they'll ever see that love can be a gift without strings attached, and that you can love without being destroyed' This really made me think too. Previously my pain and hurt has been a burden for Enigma. She feels responsible for the hurt she causes our family - but some of that responsibility lies in our reactions. İ feel getting on with our life whilst this may be a shock to enigma initially it also frees her - and us. Good for Whizz to see this too. We can speak about how sad we are about Enigma...and then we can laugh about some good memories...and then get on with our day. İ realise too that İ never wanted to be on that list tokoloshe. My dd's would be ok and would come through unscathed which is largely true for Whizz - but İ had to keep extending the boundaries and accepting the unacceptable to maintain that stance - Our family was very nearly destroyed in the process. Enigma has at least seen lots of forgiveness adn people changing their behaviour in order to repair our family - my Oh and İ separated for 2 months at one point - İ know that has given her hope and İ know she knows we love her...but she just cant live with us right now.
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Post by lemonade on Jun 28, 2014 19:48:46 GMT
İ think İ have been in denial too. Neither of my dd's have letters after their names - they are not statemented or officially declared ADd/ASD etc so it has been easier for me to believe those minor issues would improve or at worst remain minor. Not so. Although Enigma has made great strides and turned herself into a good student, is outwardly compliant, articulate, friendly her desire to lead a secret life guarded by lies, huge anger and deception has increased. She doesn't just lie to us, she lies to her few friends too so nobody really knows the real Enigma. So sad. Enigma sounds exactly like you were talking about my AD Bubbles now 24 yrs especially your comment... "is outwardly compliant, articulate, friendly her desire to lead a secret life guarded by lies, huge anger and deception has increased. She doesn't just lie to us, she lies to her few friends too so nobody really knows the real Enigma. So sad"
I describe Bubbles as an onion with layers, we never quite know which is the real Bubbles and maybe there are many versions. Stay strong. Love L xx
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Post by corkwing on Jun 29, 2014 6:28:52 GMT
Hi, Kzim -
Sending you hugs!
I did a great course a while ago about "boundaries". It was about knowing where our responsibilities lie: what's on our emotional property and is our responsibility and what isn't. It also talked about feeling safe and secure within our boundaries: that there are people with whom we can open up our gates and let them in and it's safe. There are others where, if we open ourselves up to them emotionally, they won't respect that and will trample over our emotions and we end up getting hurt. There was then a great bit about how to deal with that, and the ultimate is that we protect ourselves emotionally from them. It's sad when that happens, but, with some people, we need to do that to protect ourselves and that's a very valid thing to do, and doesn't negate our love. If we don't do it, and we keep letting ourselves get hurt, we WILL in the end stop loving them.
It sounds to me like you've reached this last stage and are handling it really well! It's fine to withdraw emotionally in this sort of situation.
Look after yourself.
Love,
Corkwing
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 9:47:45 GMT
That's really interesting Corkwing.
I'd love to hear more about that course as I think it's where I'm at right now. I am a bit of a sponge and soak up everyone else's hurts and worries and I think I care too much. I am now trying to protect myself from all the hurt and carp both my DD's have thrown at me lately. I have, up to now, always put everyone else's feelings before my own and I'm now realising that this has to change or I won't survive. I'm trying to learn not to care so much, but it goes against my nature so it's really really hard.
If you still have details of that course I'd be grateful to hear of them.
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Post by corkwing on Jun 29, 2014 13:56:42 GMT
Hi, jmk - The course was given by Dr. Kara Lawman (an ex-psychiatrist who's now moved into life coaching). You can buy access to the videos on her website rewirelifecoaching.com/recorded-seminars-and-courses/. It's expensive, but I think it was over 8 two hour sessions. The group work isn't on the videos, but I don't think you lose anything from that. I'm not sure what happens about handouts. You'll need to be aware that the course is given from a Christian perspective. It's based on a book called "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend, which isn't specifically from a Christian perspective. It is a lot cheaper and you can get it in various forms, including electronic). Love, Corkwing
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Post by kizim on Jun 29, 2014 17:49:20 GMT
Thanks Corkwing...just been reading some interesting extracts from googling the book, including Boundaries with problem children. İ recognised myself in many of the statements but found it very healing and comforting to read.
What you wrote earlier, There was then a great bit about how to deal with that, and the ultimate is that we protect ourselves emotionally from them. It's sad when that happens, but, with some people, we need to do that to protect ourselves and that's a very valid thing to do, and doesn't negate our love
İ am at that stage Corkwing - but İ did not arrive here intentionally. Something happened behind the scenes and İ find myself sad but with a changed attitude....İ hope it brings about a positive change in some way. Thank you for sharing this
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Post by corkwing on Jun 30, 2014 6:42:41 GMT
You're welcome!
I checked the book out again, and it does also come from a very Christian perspective - although the message is applicable to anyone, really.
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Post by kizim on Jul 1, 2014 18:19:03 GMT
Finally had a msj from Enigma. She set up a new fb page - just an unemotional..İm fine , have a job, place to stay, Money. The fotos showed a very tired looking Enigma wearing new clothes. This morning a friend request came - İ didnt respond - this afternoon she closed/blocked me from her new fb.
She may well stay away til the season ends... as long as she can cope with the hard work and manages not to mess up.....when everyone goes home to family or on to uni - she will be left.
So hard to equate this situation and all of the other situations with the loving, mature, funny daughter- so close to me...always in need of my hugs. Maybe it is the loving girl who doesnt really exist, maybe she is trying to be who she thinks İ want her to be but cannot maintain it. Certainly the selfishness she can display is breathtaking.
Just reread all of Corkwings contact thread. İts a strange otherworld we inhabit at times isn't it?
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Post by damson on Jul 1, 2014 19:29:39 GMT
(((Kizim))) Good to know that E's got herself a job and a place to stay. It was decent of her to let you know, so you don't worry that she's on the street. Curiously, she may even think that she's causing you less pain by staying away... I'd bet that she pays you a visit in her new adult guise well before the end of summer. The connected bit of her still needs her family, and the new adult bit will need your respect xxx D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 8:17:42 GMT
Just wondering why you didn't respond to her friendship request on FB Kizim?
She seems upset by this and has now blocked you. Would you rather not know what she was doing? At least that way you could have checked up on her a bit and kept the lines of communication open, but now she thinks you have rejected her?
Maybe there's stuff I don't know about/understand? Just wondering ....
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Post by kizim on Jul 2, 2014 12:28:31 GMT
jmk- she had sent a fb friend request to me at 8am...whenİ switched on my laptop a few hours later she had already deleted her new fb page or blocked me...so İ did not have a choice- she had changed her mind. İ did put my fb page to public though so that she can see us when she wants. But , to be honest, İ do not know if İ would accept right now. İ am still processing what has gone on and how my attitude is changing. İ dont feel ready for contact. İ am ok but only if İ can focus on other things...otherwise İm welling up. Obviously she is the first person İ think of when İ wake up and the last one at night. However, it is only now that İ am not dealing with her that İ realise how much stress İ have been under...and just how much İ was being manipulated
tokoloshe - she has been wanting to leave for at least 2 years. There was no real crisis just a minör disagreement which we resolved..but she had had a bag packed for 3 days, just waiting for an excuse. Part of me hopes that she will be ok and that she just needed to run her own life...but emotionally she is not really able and many of the situations she has gotten involved with have had nothing to do with us.
İ am hoping all will be good but think some time and distance will help all of us.
Thank you for caring
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Post by damson on Jul 2, 2014 18:10:41 GMT
Enjoy the peace, and remember to smell the roses
xxx D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 3:39:21 GMT
Aaah thanks for the clarification kizim, I did misunderstand your post then and thought you'd refused her request.
Hope things resolve themselves with a bit of time and that Enigma stays safe and well. x
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Post by kizim on Jul 5, 2014 16:22:21 GMT
İ sent enigma a brief message via her sisters fb page. There was no reply but İ was instantly unblocked.
İ was sad to see that the only other friend on the new fb was from a an older exbfriend who span a web of lies ...including sayng he was adopted. He was 19 Enigma was 1 week from her 15th birthday when she met him. He told her he was 17 - had the fake fb page to prove it...and soooo many other lies. She was groomed and essentially raped by him
Last year İ discovered she was in touch with him. Her explanation was she did not want to feel a victim so if she rewrote this event as romantic then it put her back in control. İ can undestand that to a degree but him reappearing here showed me that Enigma is not moving on and looking to the future...but still enmeshed in the past. So sad
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Post by lilyofthevalley on Jul 5, 2014 17:00:53 GMT
Sorry to hear this. It's so hard isn't it? Unfortunately you can't live their lives for them. It sounds like she would probably benefit from counselling but she probably wouldn't see that. I empathise. My daughter too was raped by a male friend but refused to go to the police or do anything else. Interestingly she spoke about it to her nice new manager at the nursing home where she works and this sensible woman suggested to her that she ask to have a CPN to talk to. She seems interested in the idea although she refused to cooperate with a CPN in the past. ( As an aside she tells me that on many occasions staff at the nursing home have said to her half jokingly 'I don't know how your mother coped with you!' They know that she is adopted and that she suffers from ADHD. Although she is a very good carer with the residents at the home, she is sometimes in trouble with other staff as she will say exactly what she thinks. Fortunately she tends to be forgiven as she is very amusing and comical).
Lily x
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Post by damson on Jul 5, 2014 18:58:16 GMT
Hi Kizim Try not to grieve about E's facebook page. You know that she probably has more than one page, so this is sort of her private channel to you. Shame you have to share it with creepy lad. (All the people who ever cared about me? Now that is a very annoying thought.)
Now you are in touch, I guess you have the tricky problem of what to say...
I hope she's OK,
xxx D
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Post by kizim on Jul 5, 2014 19:29:01 GMT
hahaha you are so right Damson....thankfully creepy lad has been deleted...and my husband just called to say there was a missed call from Enigma on his föne - so she has switched us back on.....my OH said he sent a msj saying sorry he missed her call but was here now if she wanted to get in touch......but you are sooo right....what to say....what to do??? do not want to get back on this merrygoround One idea....my husband has been speaking with a therapist who said if Enigma turns up to come as a family ...
we shall see
Thanks Lily ...good to hear there is life after teenage years!
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Post by corkwing on Jul 5, 2014 19:37:14 GMT
Sending you hugs.
Love,
Corkwing
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Post by kizim on Jul 5, 2014 20:02:46 GMT
Enigma called my husband to say she is happy, does not need anything from us...he asked if he could come and pick her up....she said no thanks İ will come back when İ want to....he said that was not her decision to make...and she rang off. He said she spoke sarcastically to him as she does when she has an audience...probably her new best friends were listening in...and claimed she was only calling because he had called her yesterday...he hadn't... so looks like there is no need to say or do anything right now. she did not even ask how İ was
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Post by kizim on Jul 6, 2014 10:39:51 GMT
This morning we got a call from my m-in-law asking us if we were in their village - because she had just seen Enigma there on the back of a motorbike ...looks like she is feeling the need to visit her roots...and Show her latest bf where shes from maybe? İ think she felt safe because my OH told her that we have told people she is working in town...maybe he shouldnt have..., Going to spend some time removing her stuff from Whizz's room - she left everything even her 18th birthday presents
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