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Post by giggles on May 26, 2014 12:38:18 GMT
Does anyone have any first hand information on the effects of high levels of cortisol in utero? We suspect this was a factor in DS's case and whilst we have done some research on this, we wondered if anyone had first hand experience, or thoughts from any profs.
We have no concerns over drug or alcohol misuse during pregnancy but this is something that we feel will have been a factor. Thanks.
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Post by sockthing on May 26, 2014 12:43:49 GMT
I think it's going to be hard to unpick for so many of us. I am sure it was a factor in our case but I think so often in BMs the high cortisol comes hand in hand with self-medicating with drugs, alcohol, or even "just" cigarettes. Probably fairly unusual to have none of that?
Hope you get some helpful replies, I'll read with interest.
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Post by serrakunda on May 26, 2014 16:14:07 GMT
I think margot Sutherland may have done something on the three stress hormones, cortisol, adrenaline, and one I always forget , in utero and impact on brain development
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Post by giggles on May 26, 2014 19:24:23 GMT
Sockthing, I agree that in many cases it would be very hard to unpick between these factors. I'm pretty sure this was a factor for us, in isolation from others. The more I read, the more convinced I am.
Serrakunda, Margot is always a great go-to and there is a little of this in the book I have, which is actually helpful. And very user friendly for others to read and hopefully understand our DS a little better...
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Post by peartree on May 26, 2014 19:29:58 GMT
Thinking Margot But also the you tube bryan post & oxytocin affects on brains
'Attachment trauma and resilience' by Kate cairns has about the reduced neuro connections in utero
Also see Helen oakwater 'bubblewrapped children' first 2 chapters free download has a lot of useful refs
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Post by gilreth on May 26, 2014 19:33:19 GMT
My nephew (also adopted) had this effect so I know a little second-hand. But can ask my sister to get directly in contact if you wish....
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Post by giggles on May 26, 2014 19:42:38 GMT
Thanks PT, I'll check those refs out.
Gilreth, that would be amazing if your sister is willing to contact me. Thank you.
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Post by gilreth on May 26, 2014 19:46:50 GMT
I'll check with her and get abck to you....
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Post by damson on May 26, 2014 19:49:02 GMT
www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/04/19/1201295109.full.pdfA science paper from 2012, technical, so not a nice read, but my summary:- High maternal cortisol in utero at 15weeks was significantly related to larger right amygdala volume in girls at 7 years of age. Those with bigger agmygdala volume had more mood problems.(for which read mental health problems.) No significant effect found in boys. What was also interesting was that the conclusion section did have a go at 'unpicking' genetics and environment, by pointing out that IVF babies where the child is not genetically related reveal that fetal environment can affect the child's later mental health. I had always assumed that high stress/alcohol/drugs had the greatest impact later in pregnancy (I think I read something about alcohol some years back) but this paper says brain architecture and development goes on early in pregnancy.
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Post by chotimonkey on May 27, 2014 7:00:00 GMT
V interesting about different reactions to make and female brains... I have always wondered about my friends boy... She had a full term still birth 10 months before the birth of her so and her pregnancy was naturally fraught with the highest levels of anxiety, grief and depression you can imagine, but he is a very calm, well adjusted, well balanced, bright young man...
Also our children were all removed at birth, but were all involved in care proceedings and the pregnancies were all stressful, bm was beaten on the stomach with a pool cue during squirrels pregnancy. Squirrel us far more high anxiety/ has sensory stuff v sensitive to loud noise and I have always felt in utero stuff has played a role George is a really chilled little man even tho the bps knew they were fighting a losing battle trying to keep him and it must have been v stressful
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Post by peartree on May 27, 2014 9:20:09 GMT
Damson very useful Blossoms bm got beaten up when prg Hospital admission I'm sure the cortisone from that would have been hugely impacting
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Post by mayan on May 27, 2014 10:15:44 GMT
There was quite a bit of work done on this back around 07/08 at Imperial College London - think it was a Professor Glover - amongst which was the high level in utero caused by arguments between partners (very relevant to many regarding our children and their earlier histories).
Along with cortisol also consider impacts of things like low magnesium in particular - the latter being comorbid with sleep difficulties, muscle tension and some other things that may ring bells.
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Post by nomoretears on May 27, 2014 13:29:17 GMT
I cared for a baby who was removed from hospital on day one, straight to me. He was my only placement and we had a very calm home life. Contact stopped almost immediately so out of all my children he had the most normal upbringing. Adopted at age one.
I know the couple who adopted his brother who was left at home for his first 2 years. I expected him to be vastly different to the baby I cared for as their first 12 months were so different. In actual fact they were incredibly similar, even though they'd never met.
There were no drug/alcohol issues and the doctors involved put the similar behaviours down to Cortisol in utero.
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Post by giggles on May 28, 2014 10:02:30 GMT
Thanks all for your comments.
Toko - if you're able to get any info from work, that would be great, thank you!
Damson - thanks for the link and the summary.
It's interesting re the point of girls / boys.
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Post by giggles on May 28, 2014 10:08:57 GMT
Oops, posted to soon.
Margot Sunderland has the following to say,
'Some research shows that unborn babies who are subjected to overly high levels of stress chemicals can go on to have reduced capacity to deal with stress as children and adults. High levels of stress during pregnancy is one of the risk factors for depression and vulnerability to drug-seeking in later life. A baby who has been stressed before birth can be a very unsettled baby after birth and parents may have to work extra hard to regulate their child's painful emotional and physical states. If a stressed baby receives plenty of calming and soothing parenting, his ability to handle stress can improve.
In some cases, too much stress during pregnancy has also been shown to affect the genetic unfolding of key emotion chemicals and hormones in the unborn baby. This means that certain key genes don't do what they're supposed to do; they don't move to the right place in the brain. In the male foetus, for example, overly high levels of stress in the mother can change the impulses of the hormones testosterone and oestrogen. Research with other mammals shows that male infants may be born with a feminized brain, which can have implications for future sexuality.'
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Post by giggles on May 28, 2014 10:10:31 GMT
I know the couple who adopted his brother who was left at home for his first 2 years. I expected him to be vastly different to the baby I cared for as their first 12 months were so different. In actual fact they were incredibly similar, even though they'd never met. There were no drug/alcohol issues and the doctors involved put the similar behaviours down to Cortisol in utero. NMT - are you able to describe any of these behaviours at all please? Just interested to see if similar to what we see here.. Thanks
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Post by peartree on May 28, 2014 10:30:22 GMT
I found some notes from a Kate cairns talk 'Babies (under 1s)that are placed for adoption are characteristically difficult to soothe, easily distressed and take a long time to calm- exhaustion overtaking before the stress fully dissipates... They are often babies who struggle with abnormal sleep patterns... Find the muscle co-ordination to feed/ crawl much harder and they have far fewer newer neuro-connections in utero which hampers their attachment systems before we are even on the scene as placements ' (from my notes 2005)
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Post by giggles on May 28, 2014 10:45:45 GMT
Thanks for taking the time to look that up PT
DS was placed under one (4m) and has been a terrible sleeper. Just getting there after almost 2ys with us. Really difficult to sooth too, but again, we've been making some progress here too.
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Post by nomoretears on May 28, 2014 16:00:06 GMT
Giggles, that's really interesting about the testosterone and oestrogen as both the little ones I referred to had problems with their genitalia...
They were also unusually quick to startle (more so even than some of the babies I've cared for who were born addicted) and a little behind with gross motor skills.
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