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Post by pingu on Apr 5, 2014 22:34:05 GMT
I have been hearing a lot about it being important the adopted child knows their birth mum loved them, even if she couldn't care for them.
But what if she didn't, or we really doubt how much she did care. Some parents do hate their kids, or one of the bunch. What if she was cruel to her kids physically and / or mentally. we know there are some (fortunately few but there are some) who actually don't care at all.
What are their adoptive parents to say to their kids, how can they help their kids develop a mature understanding and sense of self. And some of these abusers do " cry all the tears I could" for their kids, but it doesn't necessarily mean they really love them, some are just upset that they no longer have what they thought was theirs to do what they liked with. How can we really know if the kids were loved or not, and is it right to say so, if we could be lying to our kids. I know that some people are neglectful and have chaotic lifestyles, and are unable to parent well enough, while still loving their kids, but I am not thinking of these parents.
My one regret with the 15000 and counting program is that, it didn't include the type of parent I am referring to, probably because legally it would be tricky.
I would enlarge further but that will have to wait till I can use ASB.
Any thoughts?
Thanks
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Post by pluto on Apr 5, 2014 23:28:18 GMT
I never tell my children their birth parents loved them, as I have no prove they did. If they ask I ask them back what do you think? than depending on the answer I stear towards it is very likely they did, but than I tell some truth as well, (the neglect, abandonment). You have to find a balance between what the child is ready to hear and the truth. The truth is that obviously they did not love the kids enough to 'keep' them, it might be mental health, addiction etc, and sad circumstances, but children are not taken away from parents for wearing dirty socks. Love means nothing if you live a selfish life and love yourself, drugs, alcohol so much that the child is in the second place. Why did my birth mother not go to meetings, Why did my mother never took my home from hospital? Why did my mother give me drugs?
The answers have nothing to do with love for the child.
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Post by moo on Apr 6, 2014 5:21:09 GMT
Very pertinent topic for us at the mo pingu.... Boys are asking lots of probing ( quite mature ) questions....
i try my upmost to be honest with them at all times..... We are lucky in spite of their early years 'madness' bm did really love them.... Odd in its way knowing what went on.... But interestingly they have yet to ask that Q specifically!! I will obviously tell them she did but but as Pluto says I have started asking them little Q's back to encourage them to think around the situation for themselves.... They come to conclusions & 'run them by me to see if they have got it right ' iykwim.....
Awful thought tho how to broach if bf didn't love them... Not sure bf of mine actually able to 'feel' that actually  Hope it never comes up....
xx. moo. Xx
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Post by flutterby on Apr 6, 2014 6:15:06 GMT
I think I would try and explain it in terms of mental illness. You must have a mental deficit to not be able to feel love. If they know their BPs were mentally ill and therefore their brains malfunctioned, surely this is the better option than plain evilness.
And as for the kids' thinking that they themselves might have inherited this, I would state categorically that would not be something that could be passed on, i.e. cruelty etc.
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Post by giggles on Apr 6, 2014 6:31:25 GMT
Interesting topic, I've been thinking similar thoughts myself recently. We're too early and too young to have such discussions yet but I do worry for the future.
I think LOs BM did love him but in other respects struggle between thinking 'too painful' or 'can't be bothered'.
For example, the programme the other day, Nicola loved her baby enough to want to be there for his immunisations but seemingly not enough to go to the final contact.
For those already facing these questions, do you find that these little displays of love / affection make any difference or does it make it harder to accept the bigger picture?
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Post by milly on Apr 6, 2014 8:11:05 GMT
Mine have never asked this. My policy now is to be truthful so I would just give the facts I know.
But admit that when dd1 was 4 I made her a book about her life in which I wrote that her bps loved her but couldn't look after her. She has never questioned that as such.
Dd2 has never yet shown more than a fleeting interest in her bm; she focuses most attention on her fc as she can remember her, and often speculates that fc wanted to keep her.
That is hard because she didn't, although has since adopted. I square that one by saying we were identified as dd's new family around the time she moved there, which is true, so she was just looking after her until we could have her.
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Post by serrakunda on Apr 6, 2014 9:32:52 GMT
I think it's too sweeping and unfair to say that BPs didn't love them enough to keep them. It's far more complex than that. All our children have such individual histories that we can only reveal so much of here. Simba was relenquished by dad because he knew he couldn't give him what was needed, isn't that love? As for his birth mum, in many ways she had a far worse early childhood than Simba did. She couldn't look after herself let alone a baby, does that mean she didn't love him.
Looking back at the 15.000 and counting programme, we don't know Nicola so I think it's unfair to assume she didn't love the baby enough to turn up to final contact. We can only speculate on the reasons why. But maybe it was too much to bear ?
of course there are people out there who do the most dreadful, awful things, deliberately to their children, I'm not defending that, but that's not the story for all of them. If he asks I tell Simba that yes he was loved, because I know the story and I cannot truthfully tell that they didn't and don't still love him. Life is much more complicated than that.
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Post by sooz on Apr 6, 2014 11:19:02 GMT
I think the problem is trying to second guess how someone feels by their actions. We really can't do that because we will interpret someone's actions by how we would feel ourselves, or how we would have acted in the same circumstances.
So, we could say that we think your bm loved you because she did x or y and to me that showed she cared.
We could say that people feel things in different ways depending on their own experiences, I would show I loved you by doing x and maybe bm showed she loved you by doing y.
For me, the issue is showing my ds that he is worthy of love, just for being who he is, to help him not think he wasn't worth loving and keeping. I would also like him to be able to accept different peoples capabilities and realise that it is not a reflection on him. I could even say that, actually, you deserved so much more than she was able to give you because you are so special.
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Post by homebird on Apr 6, 2014 16:01:38 GMT
This has made me realise that, although we talk about birth mum, its never in relation to just our daughter, more as mum to a group of children, who she was unable to care for. Our daughter has grown up knowing why the children were removed from the birth home as its in her life story book provided by ss and she has just accepted it. Even at 13 years old she doesn't ask about birth parents (birth father died two weeks before she was born). We often talk about her siblings and the other adoptive parents but if we mention birth mum its "oh her" kind of thing. I am able to tell her that birth mum supported her adoption so we could assume that she was loved by her but in all honesty I couldn't say she fought for any of them - I was present at all the meetings about the childrens futures and she was more concerned about fighting social services than keeping her children.
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Post by twoplustwo on Apr 6, 2014 16:51:55 GMT
Stig's BM did love him - still does - as far as she can love so I have no problem with telling him that she does. However I have fostered children and, in some cases, I had no idea how they really felt about their child. In those cases I NEVER said that their BM loved them. If asked I would tell them that I didn't know. I'd go on to explain that there was no reason why someone wouldn't love them because there were things sbout them that were lovable but that some people couldn't love anyone else because their brains don't quite work normally.
I think it's a huge mistake to say that their BPs loved them if you don't actually know they did. For me, the important thing here, is that the child knows that THEY are lovable.
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Post by pingu on Apr 6, 2014 18:12:29 GMT
That's why I am raising the question. If a child has low self esteem, due to lack of love by bm, how can ai help that child have a better sense of their own worth. They aren't likely to believe me just because I say it, in my experience !!!
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Post by esty (archive) on Apr 6, 2014 18:35:24 GMT
I say to mine, youngest, 'If she could have she would have but we know she was not always thinking in the best way or acting in the best way because of her own problems (won't go into what they were on here but he knows) and at the moment he accepts that. Eldest son would be a different matter as his mum loved him loads apparently (?) but when dad said me or him she chose dad. Funny kind of love to me.
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Post by twoplustwo on Apr 6, 2014 21:00:25 GMT
It is difficult but I doubt that telling them something that may not be true will help much. I think (and I stress that this is my opinion not necessarily a fact) that a child knows the kinds of things a parent that loves them are expected to do and will know that their BP's care fell short of that.
You are quite right that they won't just believe they are lovable just because you say they are.
My personal view is that all you can do is stress the personal problems BPs had and be the best parent you can be. It's very difficult to overturn feelings of worthlessness or 'unlovableness' in someone else all you can do is show them (in practical ways) how much YOU love them.
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Post by chocolatedog on Apr 6, 2014 22:42:33 GMT
I went to a Telling About Adoption morning last weekend and brought this issue up as a question. The answer was to say along the lines of "Your birth mother didn't really have very good mummy skills at all and mad e a lot of very bad choices which meant that she wasn't really able to look after children or keep them safe very well so it was decided that a new mummy and daddy needed to be found for you, who did have good mummy and daddy skills"……
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Post by milly on Apr 7, 2014 6:41:36 GMT
What chocolate dog says is basically what I have said to mine. But neither have any memory of bm and I think that it is a difficult concept for them, surrounded as they have been all the time they have been with us, with competent adults.
So back when dd1 talked a lot re bm I would find myself trying gently to emphasise the negative to get her to understand. But then I felt she was identifying with bm (being very sentimental towards her at the time) and I worried that would affect her self esteem ie that she'd think she was also likely to be like her.
I am not sure anyway that a belief bm did love them would necessarily help - underneath there is still the feeling she rejected them by not being competent enough.
As for raising their self esteem, I think that is a long hard road as in mine the underlying insecurity just keeps reasserting itself. I just look for ways to show them what they do is lovable and reassure often that I will always love and support them.
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Post by corkwing on Apr 7, 2014 7:04:49 GMT
It's not a question that ours have asked much, but when it did come up I said that I didn't know.
We've had very limited contact with the BM and so haven't been able to build up a picture of her. Grandmother, on the other hand, never misses a contact, sends letters that are largely appropriate and remembers birthday and Christmas cards. To me, it seems that she does love them so I would have no hesitation in saying, "Yes, I think she really does".
All the best,
Corkwing
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Post by serrakunda on Apr 7, 2014 11:46:19 GMT
to put yet another slant on this
arent we always as adopters saying love isnt enough? you have to be able to do and provide other things. One of the things I tell simba is that being a mummy and daddy is very, very difficult. You need a job to get money to buy food, clothes and toys, you need somewhere nice to live (hard if you dont have a job and money)and even more money to keep it warm. Mummy X and daddy were very young and didnt have these things, no job, no stable home and didnt have much help, whereas Im a lot older, Ive got a job which pays for our house and all the nice things we have, and we have nannny and grandad and all our friends who help us. I have quite a generous adoption allowance which enables me to work part time. I often wander what if dad had received the same level of support to enable him to work part time, to pay for a cleaner etc, when he was trying to care for both boys, what would the outcome have been then?
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Post by bagpuss72 on Apr 7, 2014 12:15:25 GMT
This is a tough one, we tell Bert his BM loved all her children but could not look after them and keep them safe. We hope this is true. She never turned up to Bert or subsequent siblings final goodbye contact, could have been down to substance misuse on the day, or as we suspect she felt defeated,hopeless and unable to deal with the heart break.
The sad thing is that she already had his elder siblings in LTFC, he was first to be adopted. The independent SW working with her during her assessment revealed that BM had said she would not contest Bert's adoption if SS returned her first born daughter from LTFC. It is hard to know what to think at times. The first born child/daughter now an adult described by BM as her «special» child has little contact with BM but eldest son returned from LTFC at 16 years and home situation is as bad as ever.
Only the birth family can really answer the original question , do they love them? You hope they did/still do but then even if this is the truth,many still continue the abuse by the way they explode back into their lives when our children get older. If this is love it is very selfish and not unconditional like most adoptive parents, I would question if this is love at all.
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Hope it never comes up....
