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Post by sockthing on Mar 19, 2014 18:18:11 GMT
I guess this is a sensory processing issue, at least in part. K is is driving me insane with his behaviour at the table. At 18 months he was feeding himself fine with a spoon, ate most things, just the odd picky fad. Now, at just turned 4, he hardly touches his cutlery and eats anything with his hands, including stuff like yoghurt and ice cream, he takes food off his plate and proceeds to eat off the table ...I haven't figured out why he does this - I've tried providing a clean separate plate, So he can put things on he doesn't like, or decides needs to be separate, but he just removes the plate. If he spills something he smears it all over the table like a toddler. He chews things and then takes them out of his mouth and leaves them in piles on the table top, he can't bear skin on food so he will chew stuff like grapes and then spit the skin into his hand, swallowing only the flesh, I have resorted to peeling his sausages before I cook them as he has started refusing them because if the skin. Add to all this the fact that 5 days out of seven he has decided to attend the table naked from the waist down and I suddenly feel a bit like I am losing it!! the boy needs boundaries I hear you cry??? It isn't for wants of trying but I feel there are so many aspects to be worked on that mealtimes just become one loooooong nagging session. He doesn't stay at the table, he finds it hard to sit on his chair. He wanders round the room and we have to constantly remind him to sit up. Short of a consequences/rewards system I don't know what to do?? its things like this that make me feel like my child has "additional needs". We go through phases of trying to work on one aspect of this list at a time and have in the past made progress albeit slowly, only for things to regress again as soon as we move onto tackling something else. Any words of wisdom? He can sit really nicely sometimes, and he doesn't do all of the above when we go to people's houses. (Only some!  ) |
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Post by sockthing on Mar 19, 2014 18:29:27 GMT
How much of this is typical for his age? Am I being unrealistic in my expectations? I find it hard to know. He's usually pretty good at breakfast, it's usually tea time when he is tired, that it all falls to pieces
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Post by twoplustwo on Mar 19, 2014 22:36:22 GMT
It may well be a sensory issue. My Stig (at 13 years old) will avoid cutlery if he can eat with his fingers and he pulls bits off and 'massages' his food. Like Kipper he seems to do pretty well if we eat out, it's at home that he reverts to toddlerhood. Luckily for us Stig prefers the 'naked from the waist UP' approach ;-)
It depends how annoying you find it as to whether it's worth stressing over, Personally I've decided that, as Stig is fairly 'normal' when we eat out, and he is severely inderweight, it isn't worth a battle at home. Not usually anyway. Sometimes it gets to me and I tell him to 'eat properly' but most of the time I can ignore it.
In your position I'd carry on as you are and just pick out the things that annoy you most and concentrate on tackling them.
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Post by wibbley on Mar 19, 2014 23:49:11 GMT
Wow! I though my meal times were bad! A lot of ASD kids I know eat with their fingers, including my DS. I have decided to try to work on the things that matter to ME & for me a biggie is actually sitting ( or standing) at the table at all! I am choosing to ignore the non cutlery use for now, encourage cleaning hands rather than smearing them on the table & I do insist on clothing  Though today I did react to the ketchup hand print on my cream jumper at dinner from dS. He said "is that your favourite top?" In a very puzzled 'what's the problem' manner. :0 |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2014 9:29:16 GMT
Twoplustwo makes a good point.
Does Kipper do this when out or at a friends house? If not then it looks like a control thing, as he used to be able to do it correctly when younger so he does know how to do it. If he also does it when out and about then that's different. Might be doing it just to wind you up?
I can't remember, has Kipper been assessed for anything?
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Post by sockthing on Mar 20, 2014 9:56:31 GMT
Thanks ladies, interesting replies.
JFK, I have been pondering this and am going to keep an eye on it, I think the answer he does some of it when at friends, but not all. So perhaps there's a mixture going on m
He has a Dx of social comm. difficulties, and sensory issues. The social comm Dx is a bit tentative as so much has improved but it's good they are monitoring.
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Post by sooz on Mar 20, 2014 10:06:14 GMT
It's probably not everyone's idea of what's right, but I don't insist ds sits at the table all the time. He can eat in the lounge with a tray, if he's careful and nothing gets spilled (although it does, accidentally, from time to time). If he's not managing to keep clean then we move back to the table. I don't do it as a punishment, just 'oh dear, let's try again tomorrow type thing.
He will still use his fingers for lots of things if not reminded, but 'fortunately' doesn't like icky hands so I've never really had the problem of him getting covered. Although that's not to say toy truck wheels haven't been used through beans before now!
I do however insist on manners if were out and about, and he is usually very good in restaurants, I've even had people say how well behaved he is.
I just found the whole sitting at the table eating meals at home was stressing me out, and him, it wasn't at all enjoyable and I got fed up of my own voice. Helping him practise how to eat in a more relaxed way has been great for us. We've done things like, see who can eat a doughnut without licking your lips, that's been great for concentration and a good giggle.
I have to say though, ds is now 7, my memory of how bad it was has probably faded!
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Post by donatella on Mar 20, 2014 10:42:39 GMT
We only eat as a family at the weekend. My stress levels can't tolerate the arguing, bickering, under the table kicking, and finger eating on a daily basis. Mine sit at the kitchen table with the tv on - I know not everyone will approve - as they focus more on the tv and less on picking the food apart. Seems to go down easier.
One of mine is a terrible eater - he's on ADHD meds so get needs to keep his weight up and he's tiny. So I don't argue over food, he eats different things to his brother and sister and frankly it can be a pain but the important thing is that he eats. I still cut his void up quite often, he'll then forensically inspect it for bits of fat, black or anything else distasteful. I have to resist the strong urge to push his face in it sometimes. I try to find suitable alternatives - won't eat fruit so has smoothies, won't eat veg but loves roast potatoes, loves steak cooked medium, trying to move him on to chicken goujons from nuggets!! And for a long time on the advice of his therapist when he did sit at the table with us we didn't insist that he ate, just that he sat with us.
He's 10 now and still drives me mad with food!!
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flowerpot
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Post by flowerpot on Mar 20, 2014 11:07:39 GMT
This reminds me of when our two were younger and we used to have 'table manners meals'. These consisted of us choosing one general rule for table behaviour and practising it in an exaggerated way eg. eating with your mouth closed, or asking to pass something across the table politely, keeping your elbows near to your body etc. This lasted for about half the meal and then we did the opposite  . Their favourite was having hot chocolate and marshmallows and seeing how many they could have in their mouths and still speak! Don't despair, Sockthing. Kipper can cope at breakfast and at other people's houses. Can you offer him more control maybe around what cutlery/plate/cup/arrangement of food etc he has? Or does he need some one-on-one time with you or DH before tea to help him regulate? Thinking of you. It sounds really draining. |
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Post by flowerpot on Mar 20, 2014 11:22:51 GMT
Just read your post, Donatella!
We, too, only attempt a sit-down meal twice a week. We, too, have the arguing, kicking, inspecting/ rejecting food etc. I find that the more anxiety that is around (beit through tiredness, stuff at school, dad home later, whatever really ...) will make an evening mealtime difficult. It helps when DS makes the meal (something he enjoys, usually) and when we use elastic round the chair legs for him to fiddle with and push against (someone suggested this to me a while ago and it does make a difference).
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Post by esty (archive) on Mar 20, 2014 14:00:06 GMT
Oh Donatella, loving your honesty!
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Post by pluto on Mar 20, 2014 14:00:19 GMT
My children both came with no manners whatsoever, my oldest was eating with his hands, mouth open, youngest always eaten from a dogs bowl so he just shuveled food into his mouth while his head was 1 cm above his plate, making a big mess.
For me personally being able to take my children to a restaurant without attracting unwanted attention is very important, so are table manners at home. So I insist on sitting at the table and manners including using cuttelery the right way, no elbows on the table, no endless talking if still eating, no talking with mouth full, eating with mouth closed, etc.
And yes this was not archieved without battles but I insisted and now there is just the occasional word to remind them. You have to make things a habit if you really want a change and non negotionable, just like brushing teeth, washing hands after the toilet etc. And you should not give up after it appears your interventions are not working, a lot of out children need repeated concequences before the penny drops. Like no food is served if you do not sit at the table.
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Post by littlemisscheerful on Mar 20, 2014 16:20:06 GMT
Meal times were always really stressful for me, - but I eventually twigged that it was one of the only times that my 2 spent time together (when they were littel I did an awful lot of divide and conquer as they just couldn't be together).
They were both using forks when they arrived at 3 & 4.
Do you have the special cutlery? (can't remember what it's called). would that help?
Re sitting still - mine had wooden high chairs with detachable tables, - it put them at the right height for the table. With hindsight, they were probably too old for these - but I'd been given one for yd and ED really wanted one. They used them for ages. Also, textured cushion like a wobble cushion, or a band around the chair legs. Tuck legs inside and then they get a sensory feedback as they push their legs against it. Might help.
I would be ok with eating with fingers - but not yoghurt!! Straw? Frubes?
Also have tv now - it makes it slow though but does stop bickering/silliness.
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Post by sockthing on Mar 20, 2014 18:20:05 GMT
Thanks folks. Enjoying reading everyone's experiences, but especially like the practical suggestions. I realised today that the way we've got the kitchen table, he sits facing the wall with his back to the room - probably doesn't help, so I sat him the other way this eve so he could see out the window.
Had wondered about wobble cushions, seat wedges, disc o sit or whatever it's called. Not cheap though are they, so I was worried about getting the wrong one. Like the band round the chair legs idea. Think he finds the table an awkward height too but can't do much about that..tried cushion on chair but then his thighs were too high and couldn't push chair near enough.
My parents were very strict about table manners so it presses all my buttons! What is hard is fathoming out what he is capable of albeit with some firmness and pushing, and what he really just CAN'T do. Asking him not eat with elbows in table is totally unrealistic expectation at the moment and will only cause both him and myself ridiculous levels of stress. Going to Chios two things that matter most and work in them, and then hopefully be able to move on to the other bits.
Wondering again if I should think about a more detailed OT assessment.
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Post by sockthing on Mar 20, 2014 18:22:48 GMT
Incidentally my mum today seemed to think it was all age appropriate!  Still think it's a bit on the extreme side though. |
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Post by twoplustwo on Mar 21, 2014 9:07:33 GMT
Incidentally my mum today seemed to think it was all age appropriate! Still think it's a bit on the extreme side though. Well as you said your parents were strict about table manners, maybe it isn't so bad after all (nudity aside) .  I think you've got the right approach - tackle what you can't bear and leave the rest for now. |
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Post by sivier on Mar 21, 2014 12:46:00 GMT
We certainly had a phase with AD where she really struggled to sit at the table for any length of time - age around 3.5 to 4.5 was the worst for this with her. It's settled down a lot now. This phase also coincided with having to peel madam's grapes and sausages for her, by the way (she'll now eat the skin on both). Also with her using her fingers a lot more than she had been doing. She does still do that a bit.
I tend to allow her to get down between main meal and pud if she's restless - she asks me first, gets down, then comes back for dessert (highly motived!).
It's so hard separating it all out, isn't it?
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Post by sockthing on Mar 21, 2014 14:24:22 GMT
Sivier THANK YOU!!
That's very interesting to hear and encouraging. I'll just keep on keeping on and see what happens.
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Post by rlmjam on Mar 22, 2014 18:51:11 GMT
We had the same issue when our 3 moved in. Anything that wasn't liquid was eaten with fingers. Our 2 girls very quickly stopped (the youngest, who was 5, had the smaller children's cutlery which helped) but the eldest was more of a challenge. We tried to make it a bit of a joke by saying "forks are for eating, fingers are for playing the piano". After a few days, they would all join in after "fingers are for....". We never allowed it to be a big issue as the last thing we wanted to do was make mealtimes stressful. Eldest is now 18 and still eats each type of food on his plate separately. A hotpot really confuses him!!!
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Post by peartree on Mar 26, 2014 7:52:48 GMT
My bc is now 6
She was a right pickle at dinner times when she was tiny.
The older two, they were like herding up some monkeys!.
The way to do it was to do it in stages and building it up
We used to do something fun at the table while one of us dished up
Simple puzzle
Duplo
Dominos
Think choosing cutlery and bowls they liked
Having placemats
Etc
Helped- they felt this is different and we are dojng this routine in this zone.
Guess that's sensory to a degree.
One day we set the table under the table!
We tried everything to make it fun and engaging for them and try and take done of the 'heat' out of the intensity so they could do it.
We have got good sitting at the table now but pip will still tend to use her fingers....
It does read that your LO is 'young' but that's ok
They can learn
Have you tried going back to feeding him like a little toddler? That might concrete in his head some of that learning?
Have a go and try and have fun :-)
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Post by peartree on Mar 26, 2014 7:54:48 GMT
Ps I have to say food is one of my 'buttons' it infuriates me like little else in a deeply emotional way. Sometimes it's helpful to seperate what's my emotional 'stuff' from meeting their needs
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bigredbus
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Post by bigredbus on Mar 27, 2014 10:47:49 GMT
Dd 9 still sits in ' highchair' (baby dan / trip trap wooden adjustable ) so feet supported and at a good height for table.
also has wobble cushion (cheaper if u shop around online.. Think I got ours for £10 from amazon, avoid the special needs sites, as twice the price... Try ebay or amazon etc or put " cushion adhd" or "w.c. Autism / spd" in the search engine and bet they'll come up.
find both help a lot with keeping at the table.
eating can drive me insane, but I try to pick my battles.. Cut it all up. Give her a spoon and fork and try not to stress. If she won't eat on her own, I'll still spoon feed her... Sounds ridiculous, but rather she ate than we battle over food. If she uses fingers, i let it go... Have wetwipes to hand and scarpe it all up at the end.
other dd uses caring cutlery due to poor motor skills. Expensive but good.
prob the most annoying is noises from eating with mouth open and sometimes i do have to remind as it is awful. I try nit to nag or be short about it, but it does set my teeth on edge!
re clothes. I insist on pants and vest as bare minimum on the grounds of it (when) she drops it down herself - it's not going to burn her skin. That one for me is non negotiable and she knows that.
try a visual timetable with the most important parts on it? (clothes etc?)
mine is inconsistent about food. Mostly eats non stop... but can become a control battle ground, so i try not to show my stress about it to her.
huge sympathies to you on this, as know i hate the " time at the zoo" feel to it all, but I'm pragmatic that I'd rather something went down the hatch, using fingers and soni try to ignore the finer points of ettuquette and accept her sensory needs to lick the table... Have bigger battles to fight, so let a lot go. tempers flare worse when sugar levels are low.
i hang in there telling myself it's a phase and hopefully she won't be doing all this when she's an adult.
don't always believe it, but sometimes hope is all we have.
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) 
. Their favourite was having hot chocolate and marshmallows and seeing how many they could have in their mouths and still speak! 
Still think it's a bit on the extreme side though. 
