Pressure to increase nursery hours

Ahgh. Posted before I finished.

I meant also to say that he has got definite attachment issues, and also has a tentative dx of social communication problems 

he IS enjoying nursery, and I had begun to wonder whether in a couple of months he ought to do 3 mornings, as it's very hard to entertain him myself on non-nursery days.

However , the BIG factor for me is that I don't want anything to be at the expense of his attachment - he's wobbling as it is, and only doing the hours he does gives me days free to do gymnastics and swimming with him which have both proved very positive and bonding for us. I also had begun to think about private OT for him for his sensory issues - to be proactive before he starts school.

Sorry this is long and garbled - I guess I'm wondering, how ESSENTIAL Do you really think it is for a child to build up to school hours before they start? I know in my Deborah gray book she recommends that preschool education should be secondary to building attachment! but what do you experienced people think? Is it better for kipper to carry on as is and get lots of bonding time, or to be well acclimatised.

We've also got 20 sessions of Theraplay coming soon so we have lots of commitments.

Urgh.  foggy head!

I don't think it is at all essential to be doing school hours at nursery.

Piglet was 2.5 when she came to us, and she did 5 and a half terms at nursery. We started at 2 mornings a week, and only in the last term did she do every morning. She never did a full day before school.

To my view you may be better off increasing to more mornings (not staying for lunch) rather than trying to do full days which can be very tiring. With Piglet we found 2 mornings was only just enough sessions to get her into a routine, but she was not out of nappies until 3.5 so we didn't up her sessions until then.

In reception in most schools most of the formal learning (eg phonics) happens in the morning, so to be honest you could probably collect at lunch for the first 2 terms and he's not miss much.

Do what you feels best, and ignore nursery!

Kanga2

Sounds daft to me - why should a child do school hours before starting school? Especially since school are happy for him to do half days anyway. My dds did 2 and a half hour nursery sessions daily before starting school ( nursery attached to school). Then there was a gradual build up to full days once they were in reception. I'd suggest you follow your instincts on this.

If it helps, my children still don't so full time at school as they wouldn't manage it so don't be pushed into it just because it's become a social convention.

There is far more research saying how damaging it is for young children to spend time at Nursery than there is evidence that is does children 'good'. There is a wealth of evidence that says even 'normal' children are not ready to socialise before the age of 3 and that they need the stability and nurture of one primary carer - so add in attachment issues and I would say you are certainly not being over protective.

Instead of another morning at Nursery, would you be able to consider taking Kipper to some parent and child activities - story time at the library, music groups ...?

Really interesting thread for me as we are facing just the same issue. We have recently (Jan) increased Monkey Boy to 3 full days. I'm just about to decrease them again as he's not coping. I expect MB will do a very slow phased start to school, as that is what will help him adjust and feel safe. One hour a day probably. I doubt he'll manage full time for a while.

I really like the idea of a late start and early departure to avoid 'the crushing', Kstar That would really help avoid one of MB's major triggers.

Sockthing, I think nursery are basing their advice to you on your standard, average, securely attached kid. Our aren't like that. Follow your gut instinct - It sounds bang on and much more than just instinct - carefully thought out and nurturing parenting. Don't push him faster and further than he can cope with.

Thanks all - it's good to know I'm not going crazy! You know what it's like when you have phases where the rest of the world seem incredibly sane and your own seems like it's operating on a different orbit....  ?

Several mum friends recently telling me that they were increasing their kids hours to virtually full time made me wonder if I am losing my judgement, but you have all confirmed to me that I am right for my unique little lad. As it is I had to crawl into the centre of an enormous bushy shrub this morning to physically retrieve him to get him in the car! 

I do find it frustrating that there seems to be a trend for emulating school hours - I said to DH what's next. Getting babies used to full days so that they are used to it for nursery?? 

Leo, I have also read that there is evidence that more time in nursery is detrimental emotionally for "typical" children. And yes, I do think kipper is operating at a younger level emotionally at least. Things like, he brings toys into the shower room when I shower so that he's near me, he follows me round the house, hates it if I go upstairs because it's "too far away", he is resisting moving on from the potty to the toilet, he's role-playing being baby almost daily, he's mouthing toys, he eats with his hands and won't use his cutlery

I just can't get nursery to see it - he is very bright, and very articulate and superficially seems surprisingly mature. when he is there he is immaculately behaved , he never gets upset about anything, and cooperates with instructions for activities (   )  he just puts all his energy into coping. I don't think he ever tells them when he hurts himself, and I'm not sure he would tell them if he felt ill and then he comes home and is defiant, controlling, tearful, says aggressive things, fixates on daddy and won't let me parent him!!

Rambling now, but thanks all, I feel fortified and will stand my ground!

Ok. I feel slightly stupid now, and a little confused. 

I went to to pick kipper up at 1.30, and he checked in with me briefly, and then spent 15 minutes looking for his key worker. Then vanished to the garden. Staff member went to retrieve him for me, and he wouldn't come so they let me go through to get him

he just didn't want to come home! Seemed happy if a bit over excited, so in the end I suggested I would let him play longer and come back later....so I went and sat in the car for half an hour. 

When I went back I had to physically remove him, carrying him under one arm, kicking and shouting!!! He again wanted to search for his key worker. We finally left at 2.20. 

Soooooo he can't tell me any clearer than that can he??? He's ready to stay ?? Or is he??  The reason I question is a) it's such a change from last week b) he has been so rejecting of me recently....


is this his way of saying he's ready for more, or an attachment muddle?

i guess it's suck it and see, but I feel a wally now for being so confident before! Nursery will never listen to a word I say now! 

Great - if Kipper's ready to stay then he won't have any trouble with full days at school, will he? (This is what you can say this to the nursery workers if they keep on at you.).

In reality of course it's more complex, and yes look into carer bonds as moo says. It also might be a bit of a 'push me pull me' response by Kipper, complicated attachment stuff and not just a straightforward sign that you should be moving him into full days if they are reading it this way.

Also the two things are not mutually exclusive. Great if he's enjoying himself and beginning to really embrace nursery. But even if he is ready for more, maybe he also needs his time with you and the one to one you can give him, and the activities you enjoy together. He's got the rest of his childhood to spend each weekday at school. He hasn't got the rest of his childhood to spend each day alongside you.

I like moo's thing about keeping them on the farm!...keep on building that bond as much as possible, keep him with you as much as you can cope with. I've got to say, challenging as AD can be at times, I miss her like hell now she's at full time school.

Moo did you experience a lot of social pressure about the fact you didn't send yours to nursery at all?

I would take him 'wanting' to stay when you know how he is when he comes home a worrying sign. To me - and this may just be me but it reminds me hugely of Tsunami - him avoiding you and looking for someone else is him showing very clearly that he hasn't got the attachment to you.

Your comment of 'seemed happy but a bit over excited' is something I would classically see when Tsunami is giving it his all to look as though he is having a ball - but is actually terrified and his adrenalin and cortisol levels are through the roof. It's not him pretending to be happy as such - Tsunami seeks out all those things that scare him most - almost to give himself the hit of adrenalin that his little body is so used to (but does him so much damage on the inside).

When at home or somewhere calm with just me and not a lot else going on, Tsunami can appear quite attached to me and will look to me for support, tell me when he is in pain or is scared and generally seem fairly content. As soon as he is in school or somewhere else with noise and groups of people, he wants to be with anyone but me, shuts down completely on any pain or fear responses, flashes his 'I'm a little charmer' smile readily and complies with everything anyone asks (far too readily!)

Personally, I think it's the perfect explanation for Nursery - that he has lost himself and his sense of security so completely in just a few short hours that he then struggles to re-attach back with you - and a very valid reason for keeping him at home or only doing activities with you.

The pressure on parents is so extreme. A friend of mine with perfectly attached, lovely birth children was pressurised by the health visitor, the nursery and many other parents to send her children to nursery full time/longer hours. She kept them on just one morning a week and didn't even stay for lunch until they went to school, then did half days at school for half a term. All three have settled in very well at school, have a good circle of friends, are thoughtful and nurturing children and are doing well academically - but the pressure she had was ridiculous.

I don't subscribe to the argument that doing longer hours at nursery is any preparation for school anyway (sorry, on my soap box now!) How can sitting having lunch with 20 other pre-school children all sitting eating out of lunchboxes possibly prepare you for the reality of probably 200 or more children ranging up to the age of 11 clattering about in a dinner hall with adults wandering round, children constantly moving, the smell of the school dinner, the strange little routines and expectations that each school has over where to line up, where to sit depending on what dinner you are having, where to get your drink, what to do when you have finished ...

Sorry, didn't mean to scare anyone!

The really daft thing is, for a 4 year old the six week long summer holiday is an entire lifetime and by the time it comes to going to school (or back to nursery) you are back at square one all over again!

Thanks all, lots of good food for thought. Appreciate your input.
X

Before reading anyone else's response re Kipper not wanting to go home, my immediate thought was "avoidance". My younger dd went to nursery every morning - twice a week I collected her (childminder the other days). Within seconds of meeting me she would start moaning, and before we got home she would often work it up to a tantrum - once all other people from nursery were out of sight. If we saw her cm, as we often did since he collected other children from her nursery, she would switch completely to being happy and cheerful towards him. They really can cover up to outsiders.

Fortunately all that passed as she became more attached to me, and for years she has run happily to greet me, all smiles. She continued to find the transition from school to home hard for a while though, so I'd still get moans and demands for snacks etc - I can just about get away with forgetting them now she is in year 4!