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Post by flutterby on Mar 5, 2014 3:36:02 GMT
Have had this from day one and thought I had been managing this well. - At the moment, I have to admit it is wearing me down no end. I am not sure how to cope with it any longer other than not being around Lo so much.
Whatever I am doing, even if I am actually making a sandwich or doing something else for her, she will go into a frenzy of touching things she is not supposed to, rattle drawers, pick up the phone and start dialling in a frenzy, you name it, all things you cannot ignore and everything takes forever, leaves a sour taste, have to say no all the time and frankly I have got to a point where I simply do not enjoy her company a lot of the time. Not good, when you are trying to be empathetic.
I know there are reasons for all of this and at the mo her behaviour is worse than usual, but still. She is doing these things consciously and deliberately. I remove her from whatever she is doing, she has a screaming fit, I explain what is acceptable and what not, she will do it again. Over and over. But each time scaled down just that little bit, so it is all very measured. So it goes from racing to the cooker and turning a knob to eventually racing back and just touching the knob with her index finger looking me in the eye - and her eyes are saying, now, what are you going to do about it. And there is just this hint of her laughing at me. Controlling is not the word.
I feel like I am unable to give her the positive attention I would so much like to give her and there is only so much of the negative stuff you can do before you actually get very, very angry inside. Reading what I have written just now, sounds like she is a devious devil. But I also know she can be very different. Very caring and gentle with pets.
Even when she gets very angry and she will bite - but again, she does not want to hurt me, so she tries her best to only bite my jeans very hard and she is feeling bad about it, you can see it and she will tell me too without me prompting.
On the plus side, LO has very good speech, she understands feelings, as much as this is possible for ANY two-and-a-half-year-old (and I am not saying this lightly, she knows when she is tired, sad and does empathy when anyone hurts themselves).
What she is struggling with is eliciting a positive response and I am no longer a good role model because I am so worn out. Any words of wisdom would be most welcome.
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Post by daffin on Mar 5, 2014 6:05:30 GMT
My LO, Monkey Boy does the same - only he doesn't modify it by making it milder. It is exhausting. I find it hard to stay positive and loving too, and I start wanting time away from him, because time with him is so highly charged and exhausting. I've just done a 2 day course (time away, yay, I feel refreshed!). See my post on 'The Great Behaviour Breakdown'.
What Bryan Post says is that behaviour like this comes from fear (eg fear that you'll stop noticing them, leave them alone, ignore them etc) and when they're acting up, you should take a deep breath and make sure you're calm before doing or saying anything, then get down to their level and say something like 'I can see you're having a really hard time playing with your toys and you're rushing around fiddling. I think you're scared. Maybe you're scared I will stop noticing you. Well, I love you and I will always notice you.' He says don't shout, don't discipline, don't lecture. Empathise.
Bryan also recommends 10/20/10. 10 minutes one-to-one attention for your kid in the morning, eg before nursery, if she goes. 20 minutes when she gets back and 10 minutes before bed. This should be with you fully focused on them and following their lead in terms of what you play with and how you play.
Like I said, I've just done the training, so I haven't road tested it yet, but it sounds plausible to me. You could try getting hold of the book, which goes through the technique in lots of detail, and the neuroscience behind it.
Good luck. Let us know how you get on.
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Post by donatella on Mar 5, 2014 8:03:53 GMT
It's exhausting. We have it x 2 here but now they're older it tends to be more verbal than anything else. Two Asd kids talking at you non stop fries your brain.
I know why they're doing it but knowing it doesn't make it any easier. They've always been attention needy and tbh at 8 and 10 still are!
If I can tune out I do - in the car I turn re radio up. But I take so much then say enough. I know you're there, I haven't forgotten you but you don't need to fill every gap. Stop. Because mine are Asd I have to be very direct and to the point.
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Post by donatella on Mar 5, 2014 8:34:17 GMT
Think this is also something holly van gulden talks about - object permanency. It's a stage in their development our children have often missed and need to work through before they're able to move on.
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Post by sooz on Mar 5, 2014 9:27:32 GMT
I've had this with ds, it's like any moment that he's not with me because I'm busy elsewhere he needs to bring the focus back to him.
I had a conversation with camhs about this, and much like Daffin says, it's fear based. It really is attention seeking, but not 'just for the hell of it'. It helped me to understand that. So, as it was explained to me, the child recognises they feel unsettled but don't necessarily know why but they know that getting your attention makes them feel better. It's not really a deliberate attempt to wind you up and any attention, even negative, is better than none. As you said, she does the things you can't ignore, and that's the point, she may have started low key but that didn't work so she ups the ante.
So, things that helped here were giving snooz something to do to 'help' when I needed to get stuff done. His favourite was cleaning the patio doors with a wet wipe while I was in the kitchen at the same age. OK it made a complete mess of the glass, but hey! I used to collect crayons and colouring paper given out by certain restaurants, even asking for extra sheets, so he had something new and I could say 'look what I've got for you to colour in while I do x'.
Making a game of it can help your own state of mind too. 'I need to do x or y, but I think if I do that you might get up to mischief because you think I'm ignoring you, so let's think, how can I do x and still make sure you are happy? Hmmmm let's think'. You are regaining 'control' and managing her before she has a chance to dis regulate.
These days I know when ds is feeling unsettled as he'll revisit this stage, usually not before I've been caught unawares though! The H from the hot tap in the bathroom is still probably in the u bend in my sink! I still have a large torn piece of wallpaper on my bedroom wall 5 years on. Several bottles of shampoo mixed with hand soap made into potions and liberally splattered around.
Oh, I forgot the invisible piece of string! It connected us where ever we were and totally bought in to ds's love of magic things.
It is totally exhausting though, writing it down here I sound as if I had it all managed, trust me, I didn't!!! Lol xxx
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Post by flutterby on Mar 5, 2014 12:12:55 GMT
Thanks everyone. The theory of it is so easy, if only we were not human, eh. I will re-examine my strategies again, which I normally do when I notice something is just not working. Incidentely, does anyone know of a book, which actually takes us as adoptive parents into account? There is so much literature on how children are affected, how to go about parenting therapeutically, but they tend to say very little in terms of how we are meant to keep sane in the meantime. Somewhere, where it is actually acknowledged that what we do is certainly not easy and that we need to really look after ourselves, if we are meant to be successful in what we are doing.
I know I am struggling at the moment with things because of having put in 150% and actually not having been able to look after myself enough because it would lead to a massive fallout the next day.
Also, there is court and nothing is settled yet. Another one coming in a few weeks, family complications etc. so I can understand that LO would test more because she can feel that all is not well with me and I am stressed out. So the best I can do, I suppose, is making sure I am not so stressed regardless of what is happening around me. Not sure how I will go about it, but the will is there.
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Post by daffin on Mar 5, 2014 14:41:25 GMT
Bryan Post (sorry to rap on!) advises parents to do Mindfulness training, and to practice a particular breathing technique (breathe in for a count of 4, hold for 7, out for 8 - repeat 3x at least twice a day, and if possible before you deal with your child's extreme behaviour.
This is so you can stay calm and centred, so you can be a more effective parent, rather than identifying the lovely things that you should do to have a whole and happy life, but I suppose it's a start!
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Post by donatella on Mar 5, 2014 16:20:11 GMT
Mindfulness isn't for everyone! My parent carer network ran a course on it and whilst I'm sure the theory is sound it really didn't do it for me! I had to force myself to do the exercises and there always seemed to be more pressing to do!
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Post by wibbley on Mar 5, 2014 16:21:06 GMT
We have this too - but without any modification. Since DS was a baby it's been going on, repetitive & to the point where I was just seething most if the day & loosing it from frustration. DS was like this from opening his eyes to going to sleep. DS has ADHD, ASD & significant sensory issues. The big change for him has been ADHD medication. His ASD cons called it 'compulsive touching'. It rears up again when he is anxious or his meds have worn off. Even so, he still can't resist a light switch or heating thermostat dial in someone else's house!!!
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Post by donatella on Mar 5, 2014 16:25:15 GMT
When I did Earlybird training they came up with some ideas for specific problems. Some children like flicking switches so instead of constantly stopping them from flicking light switches on and off provide them with their own set of switches mounted on board that they could safely fiddle with when they felt the need. Would something along these lines be doable?
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Post by wibbley on Mar 5, 2014 16:48:23 GMT
Doors were a biggie too. Ok at home now, but my friend has a particular door he really loves. Luckily she doesn't care. During one assessment when very small DS was presented with a wall of cupboard doors, he went through everyone repetitvely eventually returning to just the same few. These were all the stiffer & heavier doors than the others. It was all sensory linked & he was craving the push & pull on his muscles.
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Post by flutterby on Mar 5, 2014 18:58:49 GMT
Hm, this is interesting, when starting the thread I had actually wanted to call it "compulsive touching" but then thought attention seeking, would be easier to understand for people, so changed it before posting. - I am pretty sure, well as much as I can be, with Lo only being 2 1/2 that she is not asd. I have an adult birth son who is borderline Aspergers, so can compare. I feel with LO it is more "bad choices" to get her needs met, and I am hoping with time we can overcome this as much as is possible.
Brilliant idea about the light switches. She does like them too and they are still to high up for her to reach, so she tries to get to all the sockets... Trouble is with LO, all her strategies are very random, she has not got a favourite thing she does again and again, she will modify and try pretty much anything with promise for havoc.
Still, she is also a really lovely, loving little girl. Before tea, I stubbed my toe really badly and she could see that I was in a lot of pain. So she rushed up to me, knelt down and tried to kiss it better for me.
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Post by donatella on Mar 5, 2014 19:09:19 GMT
I'm not saying she is asd for one minute but it can look very different in girls. Both my son and daughter were diagnosed last year - unrelated by birth - and they are totally different. Even the issues that they have in common - food, hair, personal space - are approached from opposite ends of the spectrum. Which makes life challenging.
My daughter appears to be very empathetic - it's something everyone has always commented on. If someone falls, she's there first with sympathy, hugs, wet tissues. Except that it's not always empathy - although she can do that as well. With her, it's more about her role playing being the adult. My son would never do that.
It's so hard trying to unpick what's trauma and what's something else. Might help to keep a diary?
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Post by flutterby on Mar 5, 2014 19:11:38 GMT
Good point about role playing the adult, Donatella. I will start to keep a diary, I am sure that will help. Thanks for the tip.
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Post by wibbley on Mar 5, 2014 19:48:47 GMT
It can be sensory seeking behaviour, not just with ASD. If you aren't quite sure where your body is in space and are feeling off-kilter all the time (I always think that actually sounds quite a scary state to be in), then touching everything around you will reassure you where you are, how far away objects are etc. The looking at you could be because she knows not to do, but just can't stop herself. I know my son couldn't stop himself no matter what - but it still drove me mad.
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squeak
Bronze Member
Married Adopter
Posts: 73
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Post by squeak on Mar 5, 2014 20:00:40 GMT
I think you just described my 2.5 year old son when he's in a bad place... He turns the cooker on and off, pulls oven doors open (but only when oven is off interestingly), bangs doors, tries to raid the fridge if I'm trying to cook/empty dishwasher/feed dog without him. It drives me insane, especially when im stressed or tired (as I imagine you must be with all the horrible court stuff I've just been reading about - a hug).
My strategies with him have been to involve him in as much as possible - ends up actually being quicker, and he's now a dab hand at unloading the dishwasher (knives safely removed out of reach), cutting up veg for lunch, sorting washing and helping feed the dog. I've also put together a few boxes of random stuff (shells, hairclips, weird little things we have lying around that feel nice or interesting) to play with at the kitchen table whilst mummy is busy (just little boxes), and I have some handy sticker books and arts and crafts stuff that he can do without me. I carry him on my hip too as much as i can when i need to move around. However, at lunch time today he ripped up arts and crafts stuff, threw the fiddle boxes on the floor and was generally horrible! But just a hungry two year old too I think.
For my sanity - glass of red wine and 30 minutes reading time once he has gone to sleep! I'm sure I should do more worthy things, but I just can't! I also make sure I get a break now once a week - 2 hours me time, to do grown up stuff without him. Absence does make my heart grow fonder....
Hugs Squeak
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 10:41:49 GMT
Have you tried "fiddle boxes"?
Sometimes having a box full of puzzles etc and things to fiddle with, might give her something to do especially when you need to do something else like make the dinner or whatever.
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Post by sockthing on Mar 6, 2014 14:49:32 GMT
Did you mean that when she repeats the behaviour she does it again but not as bad, and looks at you to see what you do? That sounds to me like boundary testing - checking over and over that the rules are the same each time. Definitely appropriate for a toddler but I'm not saying "all toddlers do that" as I'm sure she's taking it to a more extreme level, and the constant fiddling and touching I also recognise!
I've just bought a book "why can't my child behave?" By Dr Amber Elliott, which is an adoptive parenting book by a psychologist who specialises in adoptive families. I haven't read it yet but it looks great and I know someone else on the boards recommended it.
The reason I mention it is there is a whole chapter called "The Importance of Carers Emotions" including dealing with your own stress and negative emotions, compassion fatigue, struggling with empathy, and the importance of your support network.
It's also got a chapter about "The high Energy child " which talks about "fiddling" and refers to it as an attempt to self-calm.
It's also got a chapter discussing "Attention Seeking vs Attention Needing".
I let you know what I think when I've read it, but maybe worth a look?
Chin up.
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Post by sockthing on Mar 6, 2014 14:51:08 GMT
P.S , Wibbley, I found your last post above very helpful, thank you!
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Post by flutterby on Mar 6, 2014 22:09:53 GMT
Thanks, all, for your brilliant ideas and thoughts on the matter. Would love to hear your views on "why can't my child behave", Sockthing. Or I might just buy it anyway, as it does sound rather interesting. I have heard of it before, but did not really realize its relevance to our situation.
I have actually got lots of things for her to fiddle with and I am always asking her to hug my leg, as she is constantly asking for cuddles even if she does not really want any. That way I can cut whatever veg needs cutting and LO will stay reasonably happy.
Wibbley, has your son "outgrown" his behaviour to a certain extent or is this something we will have to learn to live with? - I know, different child, different circumstances, but still.
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