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Post by kstar on Jan 23, 2014 21:36:33 GMT
Starlet is generally quite placid and genial - she has her moments when I know the distress is genuine, massive out of control tantrums followed by sobbing... That I can deal with, I can see it coming and know how to help. They have become few and far between now...
And have been replaced by whingy, clingy, whiny toddler behaviour which is driving me crackers. Everything is a massive drama - she'll be happily sitting playing or watching tv or in the bath, asks something and if I say no you'd think I'd tried to kill her. Goodness knows what the neighbours think! She screams, shouts at me, turns on this baby voice that I can't understand and tells me I'm the worst mummy in the world and she is going to see the judge to tell him she doesn't want me as a mummy. She won't go to bed, won't get up, won't go in the bath, won't get dressed... Whatever I ask just isn't fair or reasonable. She tells me to go away but if I do she screams and tells me I don't care about her.
Part of me thinks there must be something driving this, perhaps as she gets more settled and lets guard down. But how do I know if this is some kind of regression which requires lots of nurturing (tbh I am too exhausted for that), or boundary testing (in which case I need boundaries in ASAP).
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Post by milly on Jan 23, 2014 22:01:44 GMT
All I can say is that my 8 year old can be as you describe but putting in boundaries is mostly counter productive. Being nurturing, lowering expectations and finding a way to soothe is best. So that's what I do (except when my own stress levels don't allow me to - but then I do have DH to step in. Can imagine it is hard as a singly.)
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Post by shadow on Jan 24, 2014 8:21:44 GMT
end of honeymoon period? Have you recently had the adoption order? testing to see if she is staying?
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Post by pluto on Jan 24, 2014 9:33:37 GMT
This is trying to controle you, it always comes down to controle with those kids. In my books deal with behaviours first, while keeping in mind there might be a reason, but do not respond with empathy if a child is rude and disrespectfull.
Talking in a way you have to ask What did you say? Is controle BIG time.
Telling you to go away is controle.
Involving judge is controle.
Disobeying normal things like getting dressed is controle. |
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Post by littlemisscheerful on Jan 24, 2014 9:45:17 GMT
Sounds like end of honeymoon period to me.
A couple of things that I found helpful were a) finding ways of not saying no. Things like 'What a great idea. Lets wirte that down and find time at the week end to do x.' 'Wouldn't it be great if we could eat sweets every day and not worry about our teeth. If I made teeth we could eat sweets all day and they'd be good for us. But unfortunately, ....' Bit long winded, but worked with my girls.
Choices - do you want to walk to bed/ bath, or would you like a piggy back (this was very successful for getting a stroppy, reluctant 9 yr old to bed).
My ED went through a phase of having a bath as soon as she got home from school. It was a nice destressor for her, and meant we didn't have to worry about it later.
Write a chart of what needs to happen (or a visual timetable).
And finally, I read The Explosive Child which was massively helpful for me to help work out what was worth me digging in my heels for, and what is was ok to just say 'gosh, I can see this is really tricky for you right now, let's chill out instead.'
Also, there is some good ideas on the Autistic website under PDA (pathological demand avoidance) - not suggesting for one moment that Starlet is on the spectrum, but it may help regardless.
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Post by sockthing on Jan 24, 2014 9:46:57 GMT
Poor you, very hard to deal with, and the more so the more it goes on. It sounds an awful lot like the behaviour we had from kipper in his terrible twos. They were like terrible twos but far more extreme and very confusing. I recognise the rages over seemingly nothing, and the pushing and pulling behaviour - drawing you close , instantly pushing you away. Controlling, etc. I thought it was terrible twos and tried putting firm boundaries in so he knew I was in charge - being firm; consequences, all the stuff my friends did with their twos. BIG mistake for me!! It just escalated and escalated until I was shouty and miserable, and felt powerless, and he was raging and angry. And boy, he had staying power! He would just find more and more and more things to fight me on. If you get into a head long battle with him he would always win because the negative energy of his rage and emotion would carry him through, whereas I would just get exhausted. I eventually discovered it was far better to tackle it sideways on.
Soooooo, I slackened my rigid rules - some of them I had been sticking to just to show "who's boss" when really they didn't matter; which I now realise wasn't helpful, but I stuck very very determinedly to the ones that really mattered to me....eg you DO have to get dressed! But I stuck to them in a very very patient kind way, never raising my voice or rising to the bait. I did use little incentives, and lot of distraction. I didn't always feel kind inside but I pretended to myself. I always tried to make sure that I got the outcome I wanted in the end! even if it took ages to achieve and in a very roundabout way. This has led to friends and family watching and thinking we are a soft touch and not in control, but actually we WERE in control, but it just had to be so subtly done that Kipper didn't really notice it happening.
It did work so much better, and eventually the phase passed. Interestingly, now our attachment is stronger, he will back down in a headlong battle much more easily. I think he cares now about falling out with me, whereas before I don't think he cared if I was angry with him.
The pushing and pulling you is a totally horrible feeling and you have all my sympathy. I used to get really upset, but after trial and error I handled it by remaining good-humoured and casual. I would sometimes say "oh dear you want to be on your own...when you feel like being with mummy you can come and find me in the kitchen". But really, all it boiled down to was gritting my teeth and weathering it out till the phase passed. It does return for us unfortunately, but less so.
I realise that kipper is a lot younger than Starlet, so I guess my comments might not be helpful for age , so ignore me if no help- but it reminds me of his terrible twos and the fact that you have recognised toddler-like behaviour makes me wonder if she is reverting to toddler behaviour as a sign she's feeling insecure..maybe she's noticed she's getting close to you, and she's scared. Maybe she's filling in a developmental gap?? She probably doesn't know herself why she's doing what she is.
Sorry - I'm not sure if it's any help at all, and others may have better ideas.
Good luck, keep your chin up.
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Post by sockthing on Jan 24, 2014 9:50:27 GMT
Oh yes, and letting him make lots of choices over things I really didn't care about, eg blue cup or red cup, truck jumper or dinosaur top.
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Post by sockthing on Jan 24, 2014 10:01:06 GMT
Sorry - me again. It also occurs to me that I also tried to compensate for the negativity by investing loads of quality "connecting time" out of the house where possible...eg swimming,
Easier to do with a 2 year old perhaps.
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Post by milly on Jan 24, 2014 11:33:50 GMT
Just to add I make sure dd does do what I say, I just might need to treat her like a toddler for a while. Like if she refuses to undress I just start undressing her (she's small and not strong which helps!!) Actually she likes me doing it because she will also act helpless to get my attention / care. What I mean by not putting in boundaries is not punishing her or getting cross. Not that she gets to control me. With dd we only get this behaviour if she is tired, anxious or stressed. So dealing with her feelings foremost is the answer. I haven't always done so though, and yes she ups the ante, rages and throws things, and will say awful things to us if we don't acknowledge how she is feeling. But most of the time she is rational and delightful, so that makes it easy to see how her behaviour relates to her feelings. Maybe not so easy for you - it is much harder to tell with older dd who is a lot trickier.
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Post by sooz on Jan 24, 2014 11:43:33 GMT
Ooh it's hard!
I would recommend empathy, lots of "oh dear you're obviously finding that hard to deal with" "yes I understand you are upset because you can't have x or y".
I get the urge to get back in what I see as control, but for me it's fear based because I think I should be in control and what's going to happen if I don't get control and where will this lead, and shouldn't he be doing what I want, when I want, the first time I ask and how will this reflect on me if others think I can't control my child.
Then I take a breath........
Allow your dd her feelings, they are important. By allowing them she'll learn to moderate them, deal with them, and hopefully eventually learn to accept and control her own feelings.
You still call the shots, it's not 'giving in' because the child still doesn't get what they are screaming for, you just accept that at that moment in time it's the end of the world for them.
I usually talk to my ds when he's in a better mood and say something like. Gosh you were really upset yesterday and I'm sorry you felt that way, but you couldn't have x because.......
I do also say 'I understand you are upset right now, but in this house we don't talk to each other like that I'm so not going to talk until you calm down.
When ds has been screaming at me he wants me to go away I've sat on the floor and said, nope I'm staying here because I love you and I know in a little while you'll want a hug and I will be right here for you. He'll shout and yell but he has always come to me and plonked himself on my lap eventually.
And sometimes if I've been worn out I have just left him to it, saying do you know what, I'm really tired right now, so when you're done I'll be in the lounge!
Don't let the fear of losing control grind you down. You still got it!! Xx
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Post by kstar on Jan 24, 2014 15:47:26 GMT
Thanks everyone. I am getting conflicting advice from everywhere I ask so I think I just need to back off and take some time to think. I acknowledge that boundaries are not nec the answer but unfortunately as a working mum I don't always have a choice - she HAS to get ready in the mornings or I will be late for work! She knows this and therefore uses it. I also know to a certain extent she wants and needs me to be firm because she didn't get boundaries at home or even particularly with FC so she does sometimes do it to see how I will respond. I can't just undress her etc myself - she is small but wiry and freakishly strong. She also runs like the wind and tends to crawl into small spaces I can't retrieve her from.
She is really positive a lot of the time and we spend loads of time doing simple things together. She will tell me she loves me and give me little notes and things so I think deep down she knows she is loved and wanted.
We have got the AO coming up and she knows that; she is mostly excited but perhaps this is the underlying anxiety.
I am still confused but you have given me food for thought, thanks :-)
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Post by donatella on Jan 24, 2014 16:06:47 GMT
It does sound as if it may be anxiety based behaviour. I find it always help to see it as 'can't do ' behaviour rather than 'won't do'. Would it help to focus on the one thing that's stressing you out more than anything else and try yo deal with that behaviour first. The most important battle? And let other things go a little? Here mornings have always been tricky, still are, but we've found a way of managing mornings that works for us. And it can be stressful particularly when I'm here without support.
I assume now that middly can't do mornings so I take control. He comes into my bed, has his breakfast there, I dress him there and he doesn't come downstairs till he's all ready. When he's ready he gets the iPad till transport comes. No flexibility. Routine exactly the same every school morning so it's predictable. Bed time and bath time can be a pain but more manageable because I'm not so time focussed.
Hard.
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Post by sivier on Jan 24, 2014 21:25:15 GMT
kstar, hope you and starlet get some nice downtime together and can reconnect a bit (not suggesting you aren't connected, but tears and temper and stresses can really upset the balance of things). Maybe if she relaxes a bit over the weekend, you can gently probe the AO issue...?
Anyway, sending hugs for what sounds a tough old time at the moment.
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Post by littlemisscheerful on Jan 24, 2014 22:17:04 GMT
Can you tweak your mornings at all? Clothes/lunches all ready?, - does she get dressed at the same time as you? sometimes it worked well for us for me to be get dressed with mine, other times it was more helpful for me to get up earlier and be completely ready before they needed to get up.
I remember seeing Bryan Post a couple of times and he mentioned allowing 10/15 mins to snuggle with child in the morning as a wake up. I did do this with my yd and it was a lovely way to start the day and it put her in a very cooperative mood!
Hope you have a nice weekend together.
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Post by kstar on Jan 25, 2014 7:12:21 GMT
Yes we do that every day, I get into bed with her, she loves it. That bit is great, it's when that needs to stop so we can get up that it all goes wrong! Maybe a weekend will break the cycle :-)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 8:18:44 GMT
I'm definately not saying "all kids do this", but like Sockthing, I do remember 6 as being a most difficult age.
Mine came home at 1 & 2 and I think we missed the terrible two's completely, but boy did it seem to come out at 6!!!!
Good news was by 7 things had improved vastly so hang in there whatever the cause. Lots of good advice already given.
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Post by daffin on Jan 26, 2014 15:26:52 GMT
Kstar, just wanting to send you my support and positive vibes. Monkey Boy often goes through a particularly tiresome phase when he's stressed or anxious about something. I often don't register why I'm finding him particularly difficult, just know I am, then the phase is over and things gradually improve. And then I have a moment of realisation about what's been driving it all!
I don't have any advice to add to the wonderful thoughts above, really. In fact I wish I could sit down somewhere with all of you - say round a log fire in an old country pub - and have a really good chin wag. I think I would learn so much from all of you that I could put into practice with Monkey Boy!
My one thought..... mornings sound like a real non-negotiable, how about you describe the problem to Starlet and ask her to help you solve it. As recommended by The Explosive Child. We have been trying the technique, and it has been known to help! Not always, but sometimes..... (If you don't have the book, the crux is, describe the prob in a non-blaming way- e.g. I've noticed you're having problems getting ready in the morning. And then you ask them what's happening. 'So, what's bothering you?'. When you've heard her thoughts you can ask her how to solve the problem.
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Post by kstar on Jan 26, 2014 21:27:40 GMT
Thanks again everyone for the support and the great advice. Having talked to her today, I think it is definitely the AO which is causing the anxiety - not that it's coming up but that she wants it over with. It's an anxiety she's had from te beginning, the sheer terror that someone will say she can't stay. I got to the bottom of that tonight at bed time when she threw her arms round me and asked why we can't just go and see the judge tonight. Bless her, can't imagine what it must be like. We turned it into a joke by talking about what we can do with the time before our day in court and the cheeky monkey managed to talk me into a new party dress and sparkly shoes as part of the deal!
While I had her in reflective mood, I told her I was really sad this week, because I have been shouty mummy all week and asked if she could help me understand why. She is quite self aware when she is calm and identified that she has been whingy. We talked about how both of us need to try harder to "use words" to tell each other when we are sad or hurting or angry. She managed to express a few things she is upset about and I praised a lot for being honest. We then played an endless round of "I love you more than..." and when she said "I love you more than sweeties" I knew things were looking up!!
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Post by daffin on Jan 27, 2014 7:17:53 GMT
Sounds brilliant! It's such a relief when things work out, isn't it?
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