|
Post by pingu on Nov 17, 2014 21:44:43 GMT
Can anyone give me any tips on how to help ds1 understand about parental authority. He seems to think that because I might sometimes answer his requests by saying, I can't do that today, I will do it tomorrow, that he therefore shouldn't do as I ask, when I ask. tonight I asked him to get from his room, an item belonging to ds2 which had been stored there after it was confiscated. We had decided the time was right to return it to ds2 and asked ds1 to get it. He told us he was too busy and would get it tomorrow ! we said, no tonight please and he point blank refused to get it and refused to do so, even when we expressed our annoyance at his not doing what he was asked.he accused me of not respecting him because sometimes I say I will do that tomorrow. He has always been quite controlling, and also insists on involving himself in parenting ds2 and we know he would rather we didn't give the toy back, but without going into why, we think it only fair that we should return it to ds2 , so it's probably partly because he doesn't trust adults to make the right decisions, us included. But seeing him behave like this undermines our authority with ds2, who needs to know we are in charge, for his security and our safety! I have now told ds1 that if he behaves like that again he will lose Internet access, in hearing of ds2 so he knows we are not going to relinquish control of family situations to ds1. but it is so wearing, and neither do or I want to be lording it over the rest of the family. Normally we work by discussion and negotiation with ds1 but occasionally we need to be in charge, how can we help him understand this? Any thoughts? Thanks
|
|
|
Post by flutterby on Nov 18, 2014 7:35:03 GMT
That is a really difficult one, him being 16. For starters, personally, I would not involve him in anything to do with DS2 in the future. But I am sure you did not mean this problem to be only related to this instance.
What we have done in our house is the following. Respect their decision, but point out that you provide dinner and various other things and that you may just say, well, I can't be bothered today either. Maybe tomorrow.
Make sure that when you say, I cannot do this today then it is fair, not because you do not fancy it yourself. I know we all do this sometimes. Sit down when you are both in a good place having spent a few days dotting down every last thing you do for them and the family. and explain why you ask things sometimes, that this is how families work together and it helps everyone and we all need help sometimes and hope it will be forthcoming. Not in a look what I do for you and what do you do for me? But just matter of fact, because you care.
If he decides not to want to be part of this then the consequences are that you still care but will no longer provide certain things like dropping off and picking up from mates, if that is something he sometimes asks for.
We took a stance that what we were asking should apply to people at all times, the analogy, if it is something that could be reasonably expected of flatmates then it is certainly not too big a ask.
|
|
|
Post by mooster on Nov 18, 2014 9:05:05 GMT
We too struggled with this as AD was/is controlling and defiant. Taking things away had no impact on improving behaviour the next time as there is an inability to learn from mistakes and pleasure in creating a bit of chaos. We too wondered what impact this would have on our AS and whether he would think he could follow suit but this hasn’t been the case.
How does DS2 react to the conflict? Does he to try to copy DS1 behaviour or does he approach things differently? We have found our AS to be very different to AD – he hated all the conflict and tried to be peacemaker. He knows how much we have been upset by AD’s behaviour and in amongst all the mayhem has somehow developed quite a good (not perfect) moral core and can cope with the give and take of being in a family much better. You will probably get accused of favouritism but could the focus be turned more on the positive behaviour of DS2 than the destructive bits of DS1? So hard I know. I am not sure you can make DS1 understand; just keep modelling good choices, choose your battles and stick to what you believe is right, they will not be unreasonable values. First children in families always have the hard job of testing and finding out where the boundaries are as parents learn on the job, subsequent children do have an easier ride as they have watched what was has been permitted and can then decide whether it is worth the challenge!
I think we get such a double whammy of teenage stuff plus all the early trauma stuff it is a wonder any of us are still standing – we fell apart as a family, now rebuilding in a very bumpy way but getting there. AS often thinks AD is a plonker, although she is still his sister and to be honest if he can cope with her then he will be able to cope with anyone this world throws at him!
As they have got older we have shifted from being more concerned about what goes on in the home rather than outside it – you have no control when they are out and about so we have tried to let them get on with it with sometimes a scarily scant knowledge of what is going on. Our home is our castle so we tend to reinforce the premise that if your behaviour affects people at home then it needs to be appropriate. AD is given clear choices when she is here.
Interestingly very recently AD asked for something we thought was unreasonable so we said we didn’t give permission. After threats and raised voices (hers not mine) a white flag was raised and I said ok I will stop caring do whatever you want, you have your way – “but I want you to care” was the little voice that came back at me! She still did what she wanted though and there was very little we could do about it. It was outside of home. Talked to AS about it and he kind of understands.
Ultimately they have to make their own choices it is when it impacts on life at home that it is hard so hugs coming your way.
Mooster x
PS I have used the “tea will be in five minutes, before then please can you make sure you have done….” If they don’t do it then their tea is not served….food is so important to them the task is always completed!
|
|
|
Post by corkwing on Nov 18, 2014 11:04:39 GMT
Hi, Pingu -
I'm trying to get a bit more of a picture. You said that "normally we work by discussion and negotiation with ds1 but occasionally we need to be in charge". Completely understand and agree with that.
Did you feel with the toy issue that you had to be in charge, or did you just handle it with an order where you would normally have negotiated? E.g. "We've decided that we're going to give DS2 his toy back. Are you OK if I go and get it from your room, or would you prefer to get it yourself?"
What sort of things would you normally expect to be in charge of?
Does DS1 have issues, such as autism, that mean that you need to be significantly more in charge than you would for a normal teenager?
|
|
|
Post by pingu on Nov 18, 2014 11:13:17 GMT
We would infinitly prefer not to involve him in anything to do with ds2 , because he insists on taking over our parental role, but it is very difficult. He refuses to stay out of it, and it is impossible to deal with things while he is interfering.he stands there and tells ds2 off, and argues with us if we tell him to please leave that to us. We end up having to deal with him rather than ds2 as we cannot get a word in edgeways. Part of it is that he knows ds2 can be volatile and he worries about our safely, but part is his need to control and especially as he was the one caring for his birth siblings in bf , so he has instinctive carer role. On this occasion the item was put in his room since it's the one place ds2 won't go, but definately will not do that agin, we live and learn. initial refusal was at tea time, ds2 just sat and didn't say anything ( a big improvement on his part) later when I spoke to ds1 it was ds2 bedtime . Ds1 insisted on having the conversation outside ds2 door, wouldn't leave it till later ( I was there waiting for ds2 to get ready for bed) or go out of earshot. Ds2 meanwhile managed to trip over his trousers and bang his hip on the dressing table!!!
|
|
|
Post by topcat on Nov 18, 2014 14:57:56 GMT
My DS is only 7 and I read this post with interest since he has all the tendencies of yours Pingu. No time to write much now, only that I do tell him I am in charge - when needs be and I am also expressing GREAT displeasure with snide tones of voice and flat refusals - his teenage years loom fearfully in my mind at these moments.
|
|
|
Post by corkwing on Nov 20, 2014 7:38:31 GMT
Hi, Pingu -
I've been thinking about this a lot.
Let me start by saying that I don't think that DS1 is going to be able to change. I know that's a pain in the neck for the whole family, but sometimes it's the truth.
The poor lad has a whole pile on his shoulders. He feels responsible for his brother and he feels responsible for you. That's a heck of a lot for a young lad to carry. When I was a teenager, my father was an alcoholic and I felt responsible for my mum. I'm glad that I didn't have any younger siblings to also feel responsible for, because that was big enough!
Just as you're on here feeling frustrated because you can't get HIM to act as you think he should, he feels the same about his brother but doesn't have your knowledge and experience or anywhere to go to ask for help or understanding. So he has this huge burden and no one to help him with it. I was totally alone with my feelings and it was really tough. I wish I'd know about support groups for teenage kids of alcoholics. It might have helped me a lot. Struggling on alone is really difficult!
I think that what he needs at the moment is love and acceptance. I felt shame and guilt that I couldn't stop my father from drinking or do some of the things that my mother asked me to (like climb in the bathroom window to let the bath out so that he didn't drown). He probably feels shame and guilt that he can't get his brother to do what he's told. To be told on top that HE needs to change (corollary: there's something wrong with HIM) will make him feel even worse.
I don't know about you, but I don't tend to seek out relationship with people who make me feel worse about myself. So if he feels like that, he may feel less able to come to you about the issues in life and to be open with you if you're trying to get him to change.
So maybe the way forward is to apologise for the other night: for putting him in that situation. Add in some words of love and acceptance. And work on yourselves to accept him the way he is. He doesn't choose to feel responsible: it's just how he is.
Love,
Corkwing
|
|
|
Post by flutterby on Nov 20, 2014 7:55:41 GMT
Well said, Corkwing. I think a lot of people cannot change. There are reasons why they behave the way they do and working with what you have got and being respectful of them is much better, at least it keeps communication lines open.
I do accept my son with all his quirkiness and strange logic. BUT it drives me up the wall and sometimes I need someone to be accepting of me and what I have to put up with. So I would just like to add to your brilliant advice: make sure you can either offload somewhere else and also get some downtime! When things go well enough with your kids and you have built up enough rapport that they might understand your feelings and not take them personally either, you can talk to them in a matter of fact way how they drive you up the wall sometimes and what it does to you and why. It will give them some valuable insight into why you might react in certain ways and help them build more emotional intelligence.
|
|
|
Post by pingu on Nov 20, 2014 10:43:25 GMT
I am sorry Corkwing but I disagree. I don't expect he can change ( in the sense of stop caring) and I know he cares about ds2 but. He also knows that ds1 needs to know that hubby and I are caring for him, not him, or gets distressed, he has seen and been told that many times. He was asked nicely to return it as it had actually been confiscated for longer that originally we had said. Basically , unless he can triust us to do the parenting of ds2 its a nightmare. We do negotiate things with him, age appropriately, when it's about him, and we have a good relationship with him, and he is quite responsible, but ds2 gets very unsettled when ds1 tries to be in charge of him and when ds1 tells hubby and I what to do about ds2 It's not a question of anyone apologising. He needs to let us care , or be in charge of ds2 whatever you call it , or ds2 does not feel safe, due to his background.
|
|
|
Post by corkwing on Nov 20, 2014 13:28:15 GMT
Hi, Pingu -
Understood. So if DS1 can't change and DS2 needs you to be in charge, not DS1, then there's a fundamental conflict between their needs that isn't getting resolved. So what are the options available to you?
|
|
|
Post by pingu on Nov 20, 2014 15:01:23 GMT
That's why I posted, for ideas on this , because I am not sure. Fortunately the age difference normally helps as ds1 stays in his room a lot like a typical l teenager, playing computer games and doing his homework. Also goes out a lot with friends and does rugby. Recently he has been in more as he has prelims coming up and is worried about them. We have talked to him about this and reassured him it's ok we will be proud of him as long as he does his best, but he still worries and all we can do is support him. We also try to address issues with ds2 when he is not around. But occasionally there is this type of conflict. His birth mum, whom he dislikes intensely failed to keep them safe, and stepfather was violent to him. I think he just doesn't trust us to deal competently with ds2, especially when he doesn't see quick results, and as we all know there are no quick fixes with these kids. But beyond keeping things separate where possible I am not sure that there is anything we can do. Not. Sure if is was knock on effect or unrelated but Ds2 got upset at scouts last night, got a bit frustrated and threw a pen, which cut a boys lip. He was hugely upset as I don't think he meant to hurt the boy. I let one of the other leader s deal with it and he is on a last warning as he has been volatile before, but when we got home he wasn't speaking, just indicating his wants by hand signals, and he was stil subdued this morning when hubby saw him to school. He had pe first thing, which may help, and school haven't contacted us with any problems, but things are clearly tough for him at the moment. I can do without ds1 getting involved.
|
|
|
Post by pingu on Nov 20, 2014 15:17:38 GMT
And the subdued silence iof ds2 is a worry in itself ( he normally chatters away happily and can tend to the cheeky) . I haven't said anything about the incident directly to him, though he may have heard me agreeing with the other leader that he has to deal with it the way he did. I will give him lots of TLC when he gets home, and let him know that I understand that I don't believe he intended to hurt anyone, but he is clearly shocked by what happened. I wish we could help him regulate his emotions a bit better, but if it's his experience when little that is causing it, or its his genes ( violent birth father) then the outlook seems bleak. One of the things that frustrates me about the various experts info, is that it may explain why they do what they do, which may help our understanding or patience, but really that is little use without ways to improve the situation. For the child concerned.
|
|
|
Post by corkwing on Nov 21, 2014 7:52:46 GMT
Hi, Pingu -
"One of the things that frustrates me about the various experts info, is that it may explain why they do what they do, which may help our understanding or patience, but really that is little use without ways to improve the situation." Totally agree! I won't go into it here, but there's a thread under "Adopters" called something like "Is therapeutic parenting too big an ask?" where you can see my views if you're interested.
With DS1 trying to parent DS2...
Well, you've worked out option 1, which is separation. In our household the issues were so great that we (finally) worked out that DS1 needed to be separated from his siblings permanently, which has resulted in him moving back into care. Hopefully things aren't that extreme in your household. But it's worth having a real think about it to see if they are.
To get more separation... are there possibilities like converting a garage into an annex or having one of those log cabins built in your garden for him?
Option 2: Ignore it. You say that this sort of conflict is "occasional". So does it need dealing with explicitly, or do you want do deal with it just because it's a real pain when it happens? (And to whom?)
Option 3: Work on DS2, so that he understands what's happening and helping him to cope with the situation. No idea how you do that, I'm afraid!
Option 4: You could try PLACE with DS1. Playful, Loving, Accepting, Curious and Empathetic. Instead of telling him to stop trying to parent DS2 (which, as you've said, isn't working. Einstein defined madness as doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results), how about treating it with loving, accepting humour? Easy for me to write. Incredibly hard to do in the heat of the moment! It would probably work a lot better if you could talk to DS1 about it outside of the situation. Something along the lines of, "When DS2's kicking off, it really activates your daddy part, doesn't it? It's like you turn into Daddy Pig (or some other father figure from a film or book)." Then, when he's wading in, "Oh, DS1, your Daddy Pig part is really coming out again, isn't it?" I certainly can't guarantee instant results with that one, but it may be worth a try IF you think it fits you and your personality and you can do it in the long term.
|
|
|
Post by pingu on Nov 21, 2014 22:09:42 GMT
Thanks Corkwing, I read your therapeutic parenting thread and very much agree with you that it's not ossicle or realistic to do it all the time, and maybe not helpful to our kids as they have to live in the real world and people will ot always be therapeutic towards them, so they have to understand normal reactions to things they do or say. - we do no 1 ( separation) no spare space for expansion unfortunately though. We do 2 (ignore) when we can, as you say, it's a real pain, but vastly better than it was a few years ago , it has improved beleive it or not, and (3) ds2 has got better at coping with it. However I do like 4' daddy pig " is just his sense of humour. I am going to take my time and look for an opportunity to introduce that one, it's the sort of approach that really connects with ds1 's sense of humour. Thanks a million Corkwing, Hope your own week gets a bit easier
|
|
|
Post by pingu on Nov 21, 2014 22:10:45 GMT
Ossicle = possible. ( non predictive text !!!)
|
|
|
Post by corkwing on Nov 22, 2014 11:56:34 GMT
All things are ossicle!
|
|
|
Post by pingu on Nov 22, 2014 22:09:10 GMT
Or ot !
|
|
|
Post by peartree on Nov 23, 2014 9:36:17 GMT
Hi
Our son is now 19, so we're a bit further on from you in this. Our issues are different as our 17 yr old doesn't live at home But We came to a point this summer where we sat with him and said I can only do this if I have your 'permission' to be your parent. Then we can work together at managing the reality of his emotional limitations It's kind of worked He's got responsibilities here like helping clear the table But being invested in a family, whom he loves, means give and take and not sneakily stabbing us in the back So that's a kind of 'workable' solution here at this time
|
|
|
Post by pingu on Nov 23, 2014 23:51:27 GMT
Well, we all ( including ds1! who was becoming anxious about the silence as well) and a quiet evening on Friday, watching the Lego movie ( everything is awesome ) and by bedtime ds2 was speaking normally again to our huge relief( now we are longing for silence again!!) I like your approach Pear Tree. Parenting ds1 IS by negotiation quite often.
|
|