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Post by knight on Mar 12, 2014 18:25:42 GMT
I was talking to someone at work today talking about not always knowing her 8/9year old birth son so, it got me wondering: how long it took you say re: a slightly older child (eg 4-ish rather than a pre-verbal child) to feel that you knew them after either foster or adoptive placement? when they're overly tired (if they're not overtly "ratty")? when they're unwell, worried, upset (ie they don't understand what's wrong themselves so can't tell you)? Did that change to a different dimension say after they'd been home 6 months? more? Plus, what would the techniques be to get it out of them (apart from 'wondering' in case you're guessing several wrong examples)
Tks Knight
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Post by kstar on Mar 12, 2014 19:24:14 GMT
I would say it was about three months before I could even start to pick apart what was going. The breakthrough for me came after she'd been ill for the first time - it helped our bonding so much that we started to be able to talk more about feelings. I think now, ten months in, we are at a point where I can spot a lot of things... I know when she's hungry, tired or feeling unwell and can separate those things from anxiety type behaviours. What I can't always do is spot them coming - it's when the behaviour hits that I stop and think why, I can't always head it off at the pass.
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Post by monkey on Mar 12, 2014 20:18:03 GMT
Hi Knight I don't feel that I completely know my LO and she's been home 2.5 years. I know my BD inside out and I find it very frustrating that I can't "read" LO. I beat myself up (not literally) about a year into placement when I found out from a hospital doctor that LO had probably been in quite severe pain for about a week and I had no idea. In retrospect there were some signs but I hadn't seen them. It wasn't until she refused to walk that the warning bells sounded. She really struggles to describe her feelings (especially pain) so often it is played out in her behaviour. Usually now I can spot if something's not right but trying to work out what it is can be a real challenge. We talk about the "butterflies in her tummy". Unfortunately "butterflies" can signify excitement, hunger, fear, feeling ill etc but at least it gives her something to verbalise. I think that we just have to keep on keeping on and I'm sure it will come eventually. MMx
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Post by knight on Mar 12, 2014 22:18:42 GMT
Thanks kstar: did u get any tips from the FC as to signs, triggers, etc?
Good heavens Monkey, it sounds like it might be even trickier than I thought .
x
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Post by serrakunda on Mar 13, 2014 0:11:58 GMT
Like monkey, I think there are some parts of Simba I don't know at all after two years. Some things are relatively easy, Simba is very healthy, has loads of energy, loves school and hates to miss out on anything so if he ever complains of feeling poorly or is a bit listless, doesnt want to do anything I know he's genuinely feeling poorly. Whereas he can be the biggest drama queen over a grazed knee. When he first came home Simba never cried, he seemed to understand that there were occasions when a certain display of emotion was expected and would do horrible fake crying, but never any tears, he still rarely cries but when he does there are proper red eyes and tears so I know it's genuine emotion. We had a very difficult time after about four months, huge explosions of emotion, usually in public, and so very obvious that he was in great emotional turmoil but didn't have the words or other means to get it out. Now there are times I can tell from small, subtle signs, that he just isnt quite himself, other times behaviour just comes seemingly out of nowhere.
We have been lucky in that we have always been able to chat quite happily about lots of stuff. One of the best things I did was to get a snuggle sack, Simba seems to feel very safe wrapped up in it , in the early days we would spend hours in the evening cuddled up watching DVDs, I would be sat behind him, so he didn't have to look at me and he found it a lot easier to talk about anything and everything. Emotions are difficult to describe, we started off using a scale, 1 was feeling really bad, 3 just about ok, 5 everything is fine. Now we do thumbs up and down, double thumbs up is fabulous, thumbs in the middle ok ish, thumbs down is not good, using two thumbs gives us more options for a range of emotions.
But Simba is a very deep thinker, very complex, sometimes I watch him when he is at cubs or with friends and there is something about him which is just a little bit separate, like he knows what's expected and so does it, goes through the motions because he knows he should so he conforms, sometimes he is lost in his own little world and i haven't a clue what's going on in his head.
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Post by moo on Mar 13, 2014 7:07:36 GMT
Great thread knight....
I guess I have been lucky.... baa is my most tricky one.... Demanding & in your face & for some bizarre reason I have got him from day one !!!! Spent a long time beating myself up coz I couldn't believe I got him straight away, thought I had missed something... Our bond is iron like.... I can read him like a book.....With him he wears his heart on his sleeve ( even when bonkers or feeling hyper ) he is very much in the here & now & often doesn't think before he acts or speaks.... Oddly he hasn't really altered in my view since placement & very tiny... As serrakunda says the key for him was to feel safe & be wrapped up snuggling on the sofa... Something we also did lots together ( & still do)... He was in the enviable position to have spotted for himself how 'everyone hated him & hurt him ' & when I came along & proved myself ( being on my own & totally being focused on them obviously really helped too) he soon became a mummee's boy.....
Because he spends so much time in the here & now his needs are always instant... What I have noticed lately is he is starting to Q more & ask me lots of ( for him ) much deeper Q's... Often it us just confirming he has got stuff right.... Like a lot of our children he used to rarely cry but now the slightest thing sets him off.... He is catching up & visiting some emotions of the young baa that he never could
His is brother it prolly took a few years!! I instantly recognised the difference & knew the understanding just wasn't the same.... It was a double edged sword coz it helped me recognise the link with baa but sad that it wasn't the same with skweek.... skweek is very very deep & very stubborn... He is both harder & easier to parent ( but that is prolly mainly just because he is less troubled by early trauma than baa ) I feel so privileged that my bond with baa is so solid & instant coz I think it has helped lots parenting such a traumatised child.... I also think that without it I really would have struggled in the early days of placement....
hth & I haven't waffled & not answered your Q.....
xx. moo. Xx
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Post by justbserene11 on Mar 13, 2014 8:19:36 GMT
What a great thread this is!
Poppet has been with us for 18 months now and I am still unravelling the layers. What I have noticed is that we are so strongly linked and pick up upon each other's emotions, so if I am anxious or upset her behaviour reflects this. Poppet and I are quite similar and can be quite 'deep' and sensitive; I am not sure how much is 'nature' or 'nuture'? I am learning a lot more about myself and picking up more and more cues about her. I find sometimes I am spot on and other times not so much.
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flora
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Post by flora on Mar 13, 2014 8:50:45 GMT
I think I was able to tell if tired or hungry fairly quickly as my AS is a fairly open little boy - and is good at letting you know what he wants. However, I did feel he was holding something back and could sense a little bit of ambivalence about our relationship, even though everyone I spoke to about this couldn't see it. For the first few months he would also wake st night and be inconsolable, which was possibly a grief reaction or sleep terrors - and made me think that there were many emotions he couldn't fully express due to only being 2
Since about 7 or 8 months into the placement there has been a definite change and he now genuinely seems to 'want' me rather than just need me an I subsequently feel much more attuned to how he is feeling - and it is much easier to pick up on subtle changes of mood and when he's feeling anxious.
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Post by ceci on Mar 13, 2014 9:15:35 GMT
What a great question. This is one I have struggled with although dd came when she was only 19 months. Like Monkey I could never tell how sick dd was until she was falling down, so had several dashes to A&E with her. Thankfully she's more healthy these days (she's 9 now). I still really struggle to know how she's feeling and she can't identify it either or at least put words to it. Her favourite phrase is 'How would I know when I don't know!!!' It's really tricky! I have a birth daughter and I can pretty much read her mind! The difference is stark (and sad). Ceci
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kanga2
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Post by kanga2 on Mar 13, 2014 14:41:52 GMT
Tigger was 8 and has been home 7 years now. I would say it took me at least 3 years, and to be honest I'm entirely confident I can do it even now ....
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Post by damson on Mar 13, 2014 14:49:30 GMT
My AS and AD were very hard to read. Both still do dead pan very well. I became a very, very observant parent, and even when the signs didn't add up in an ordinary way, I learned to wonder what was coming next. Frenetic activity or silence were not good signs. Neither was giggling or laughing.
Neither child had much vocabulary for emotions, and often could not express what was the matter. We lived with a lot of tantrums in the first year. Cooking and art helped, because you can muse about things as the child works alongside you. The pictures are also a window into their world.
Nearly 10 years on, I know how to come alongside, and ask how things are. I can give a good unthreatening hug, and will listen while someone leans on me. I talk about what I think and feel, and I ask them what they think about things. I love them both, and they love me, but it is not an easy going, open relationship with such private people.
D
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Post by knight on Mar 13, 2014 17:56:53 GMT
Oh, wow, so at least it's reassuring that when the time comes, I shouldn't be too down on myself if I'm not reading signals correctly or quickly enough. I suppose it's trial and error: I'm hoping that because we'll be on our own together that it might make it a bit easier (here's hoping). Thanks very much for being open and elaborating for me. x
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Post by mayan on Mar 14, 2014 13:11:15 GMT
Ceci makes a good point re children who struggle with self awareness/feelings - I think like Damson one becomes hyper aware over time. My dd for example and ds didn't feel pain so it was very very worrying when they were ill and acutely monitoring a child or two over time is draining albeit it becomes automatic to some degree. My ds suffered with testicular torsion at one point and it took a lot of sensitive questioning before we could pin down he was in pain(I was mortified not to have realised but they can be really adept at covering any vulnerabilities) and where the pain was so we could get him medical help and an op! It helped me over the years just to jot down even a few words in a journal each night even if it was "good day" or something before I crawled into bed because over time I could look back and see patterns of behaviour and pre empt some spirals downwards or food triggers for example.
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Post by sivier on Mar 14, 2014 14:22:01 GMT
Hi Knight - that's a really though-provoking question.
With my AD I can read when she's hungry, tired, has hurt herself, is uncertain, happy, excited.
Emotionally and socially - anything to do with negative or more complex feelings - she is very tricky to read. She is avoidant, won't really tell us anything. Hates being vulnerable, is slow to show emotional need and has taken a long time to express affection, for me in particular. When I'm ill or absent, affection gets withdrawn, or rather withheld, until she can trust I'm ok/there for her again. I do quite a bit of 'wondering' aloud - which she usually ignores!
I suspect this may be a lifelong tendency, in varying degrees. I wonder whether I'll ever be able to get to know/read her accurately, in that sense.
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Post by kstar on Mar 15, 2014 16:33:43 GMT
Knight no I can honestly say I got nothing useful from FCs, in fact most of the things they regarded as problems just haven't materialised here. However her family support worker was amazing - my main tip would be to push for a life appreciation day before intros, especially for an older day. For me it wasn't so much about what I found out on the day as the links I made - the lady who'd been her first social worker, the family support workers, school, health visitor... I was able to put names to faces and was quite blunt about asking for contact details from people who seemed the most down to earth and approachable. I found people who knew Starlet when she was still with BM and could describe her behaviour etc really helpful.
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Post by knight on Mar 15, 2014 19:59:49 GMT
Kstar, do they do Life Appreciation Days to accommodate my travel (eg there's a child I'm exchanging PAR/CPR about) and her LA is c. 2.5hr drive away? So, as well as it being a day to have the child brought to life, it sounds as though it's a good opportunity to get to the nitty gritty of behaviours, background: did you go armed with a list of questions for the FC as well as the other attendees? x
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Post by knight on Mar 15, 2014 20:01:48 GMT
Mayan, that sounds awful; I can't imagine how you deal with those sorts of situations x
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Post by kstar on Mar 15, 2014 20:39:24 GMT
Tbh by the time it happened I knew I would get little or nothing out of the FCs, they were monosyllabic at best with me throughout the process. However, because there had been a lot of professional involvement in starlet's life, there were loads of social workers, family support workers, health visitors, nursery/ school staff as well as the FCs. As a result of meeting them face to face, I got the phone numbers of her old social worker, the family support worker who she still sees (something I fought for and has made a huge difference to us), the family support worker who did her life story work and a health visitor who was responsible for raising a lot of the initial concerns about her health and safety. Those follow up phone calls were amazingly useful.
I didn't particularly go armed with questions and I didn't really need to, I did more listening (and crying) then anything else!
And I was 2 hours drive from Starlet's FC too, so in the end mum and I chose to stay over the night before so we were fresh for the day, but they did timetable it to start at 10.30 so that we had time to travel. Some of the professionals had travelled even further than us as they now work elsewhere.
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