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Post by spideress on Nov 24, 2013 18:16:41 GMT
We are coming up to the first week of Incy being home "forever" with us. We have allowed quite a lot of leeway in the first week things like "don't like" certain food, pushing the boundaries at bedtime so bedtime is 30 mins later than it should be etc. I have now established certain foods I know he "likes" as he has eaten them here before and so am sticking to those core foods. He generally has either no (or very few) snacks between meals and if he is given snacks it is an apple or a banana or a maximum of 6 "fruitella" sweets a day. He is starting school a week on Monday and I feel we should start to be more firm with routine and what is allowed from this week on in order to get him ready for the strictness of routine he will need when at school. I told him before we sat down for tea tonight that it would be tea/bath/story downstairs then up to bed (the bed part to take max 10 mins) ie wee/nappy on/into bed and goodnight light off. During tea he said "I don't want a story" so I said OK just tea/bath and straight to bed then, no toys and no tv just straight to bed. Then he said "I don't want ice cream" so I said "OK so no story and no ice cream that is fine but you will eat your tea including the vegetables" I said "the longer you take to eat your tea the less chance you have of bathtime (he likes bathtime as he plays with his toys in the bath) and I will bath you tomorrow and you will go straight to bed after tea". I left him eating some veg whilst I washed the pots. He left quite a lot of veg and said he was full so I said OK, then tomorrow you will not have any snacks between meals as mummy needs to know that you eat three proper meals a day, breakfast, dinner and tea, once you start to do that the snacks can come back. I let him leave the rest of the veg and said "you may not get down from the table, I will draw your bath and then it is bathtime then bedtime since you do not want a story". He started his "crying" then which I ignored but Mr Spider did the "comfort" thing. I ran his bath and Mr Spider said "ease off, go take a break and I will bath him" so I have left Mr Spider doing that.
Do you think I should just let Incy mess us about for a month, two months etc and then try to put some proper rules in place or should I start to reign him in now ready for school?
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Post by moo on Nov 24, 2013 18:37:53 GMT
I have to say I was very firm from the off ...start as I meant to go on....
Only you know your Incy maybe he is struggling still a bit inside at saying farewell to f/c... This could all be part of his anxiety... Some of our f/c friends will be able to offer you some good advice here I know....
My two were much younger but their situation was very stressful in f/c so their settling in was really quite unusual (apparently) but they as adopted children particularly tried to control & pushed boundaries from day 1...
Sounds to me that you are doing just fine... Be careful not to become bad cop & Mr Spider good & be sure to use the same strategys & be as firm as each other don't let him spot dissent in the ranks!!!!
School routine will be very different for him & slotted into from the off coz the teachers will be more familiar in many ways & harder for him to try to control..... ( well that was my experience ) but you will surprise yourself you will be able to spot how he is doing in an instant....
Good Luck keep on keeping on you really are doing very well........
Xxx. moo. Xx
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Post by flutterby on Nov 24, 2013 18:45:49 GMT
To be honest, I would not. To begin with I thought our little Butterfly needed lots of easing in, well it only led to more controlling behaviour. The more leeway she got, the more she pushed. And she is so subtle with it that sometimes I do not even notice. She asks me to do things, asks for cuddles all the time and it has taken me over 4 months to realize that this is controlling too, not her wanting closeness, which would have been so lovely.
It has been escalating ever since we had a visit from her social worker, who had not seen her in two months, and she started hitting me, going "no mummy!" in the fiercest growling voice, which I would only ever consider using on a dog when they have rolled in fox poo.
So, as of today, she is not allowed to choose anything and I prescribe absolutely everything. Did that before and it worked wonders, with her feeling safe and being much more compliant. She is only two, so I assume for a 4-year-old this is even more important.
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Post by shadow on Nov 24, 2013 19:29:24 GMT
I would get your own family routine - it may be easier with 2 of you - it is easier for him if he knows what is expected of him and how his days will be
I tried to stick to shadettes routine that she had had in FC - bedtime was always the same - even though she didnt sleep and had massive meltdowns and I sat in her room until the early hours of the morning - bed time was bedtime
food I was more into feeding her what I knew she liked and slowly introducing new foods - she always ate fruit well so made sure she got plenty of that -but that was sticking to the familier what the FC had fed her
but to be honest she exploded completely when she came here so it was very difficult
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enid
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Single Adopter
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Post by enid on Nov 24, 2013 19:31:39 GMT
mmmmmmm.not sure really, he is still so young, think toddler, it must all be so scary for him, everything different etc.
Obviously you have to establish routines but your relationship with him is way more important at this stage.
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Post by spideress on Nov 24, 2013 19:55:06 GMT
Thank you everyone :-)
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Post by shadow on Nov 24, 2013 20:39:43 GMT
I think a routine doesn't have to be strict - just a toddler sort of routine based on comfort, care and love
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Post by daffin on Nov 24, 2013 20:46:35 GMT
I think a regular routine is really helpful. We kept the routine really tight for the first year but will now relax it a bit (e.g. Bedtime might slip by 15 mins or 1/2 hour very occasionally). I would start as you mean to go on, as my DS forms new habits really quickly and has an amazing memory for things he was allowed to do once! And he's always trying to push the boundary forwards onto new and uncharted territory. On snacks, I feel that my DS (now nearly 4), needs snacks to keep his blood sugar levels (and mood) regular. We give him a snack at around 10.30 and a small snack when we pick him up from nursery - oat cakes with hummus, dried fruit, a banana, that kind of thing. We don't give him sweets at all (really not worth the nasty sugar rush behaviour!) and only give him a (small) pudding at lunch time. he always has a good appetite, and generally he has lots of exercise, so we don't tend to worry about him eating too much. Getting him to eat any veg is tricky, though he likes green beans and broccoli and will eat other stuff if it's cut up small. If you are concerned about your DS getting faddy and controlling around food you could try getting him to design a meal (choose the meal, draw the menu - or a picture of food on the plate, help shop for it and cook it, help lay the table, light candles, sit down with him while he eats ( you could make sure the meal includes the major food groups, so it's not just chips and beans or whatever!). I've found this kind of thing makes my DS feel empowered and engaged in the process and his need for control is overcome by a sense of adventure.
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Post by shadow on Nov 24, 2013 20:58:27 GMT
maybe a routine should be seen as more a rhythm - like the sun rises and falls, seasons change - daily life is predictable - but it should be nurturing and loving and warm , and for a recently placed wee boy. a toddler routine
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Post by smileycat on Nov 24, 2013 20:59:01 GMT
Ah Spideress, huge congrats on becoming Mummy Spider:-)
It's such early days, I found it took a while to get to know Potato and then Spud.
Potato was 3 when she joined us and it took me a while to work out when she was being a little girl and when she was being controlling- which I found responded well- still responds well to a mixture of the adoption guru's advice- when I can do it rather than get cross.... ;-)
I did find in the early days though that she would say things like I don't want a cuddle, I don't want to play with you when actually she wanted it sooooooo much it scared her. When I made a joke out of this and did grab her for a cuddle, sit and start playing I found a little smile come on her face and a little girl engaging with me.
This all said be kind to yourself, right now you've effectively got a little stranger in your house/ lives and it takes time to get to know one another!! Sounds like you are doing ever so well.
Best of luck,
Love,
SC x x
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Post by nomoretears on Nov 24, 2013 21:07:16 GMT
I always start firm and ease off once routines are in place. It might be a little different as most (okay all) of the children I've had have come to me with no routine at all. The one thing I've learnt from fostering is just how much children love routine though. They might push the boundaries but without it they just melt down.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 21:09:50 GMT
I agree that Incy need a routine and boundaries which is fine as it will help him to feel safe, but I would be careful around the food issues as you don't want eating to turn into a control thing. Better to give him a choice between two healthy things so he feels he is deciding what to eat, rather than trying to force him into eating something IYSWIM.
Also try and remember this is a major move for him and he may appear to be being a big boy on the outside coping with it all but maybe feeling very anxious inside and this may show in lack of appetite, or not liking/wanting things that you know from the FC that he loves.
If I am feeling anxious the first thing that goes for me is my appetite, I struggle to eat, and can feel a bit sick to my stomach, Incy may be feeling like this but doesn't want to say it, as he doesn't want to hurt your feelings. As I said I would relax over the eating for now and as long as he is eating some of his dinner I really wouldn't make a big deal of it. He is probably very anxious about being the new boy at school and not knowing anybody. and all of this on top of having a new mum and dad. and a new home is a hell of a lot for a LO to take in.
Lots of hugs and cuddles and repetitive routine is what is needed until it all becomes familiar to him. You are doing great, just don't sweat the small stuff and don't let mealtimes become a battle.
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Post by leo on Nov 24, 2013 21:43:00 GMT
Just my opinion but...
I would hold off on any consequences for a long time - but very gently march on with setting the routine. If time slips a bit I wouldn't worry too much; he won't have much concept of time at that age and,yes,he may get tired if he's late to bed but he'd be a lot more tired if he was a stressy little boy lying scared and awake in bed for hours.
He's had such a huge change bless him and he's old enough to understand some of what it means but not old enough to be able to process his thoughts and feelings around it. A week after a husband died, we wouldn't be expecting the wife to be functioning properly or even able to start talking about their grief and they would be an adult. Your little one's previous life and all he has ever known has 'died'; it's such a shock for them.
Maybe try to verbalise some of this for him - in very simple terms: 'I wonder if it's hard to get used to the way we do things in our family? Maybe it makes you miss...' or even just being supportive and understanding: Maybe you want to show Mummy how hard it is for you at the moment and not wanting a story is your way of showing it?' or 'I was thinking that it might be best to leave those vegetables tonight, you do look tired, shall we go and ...' (controlling children can sometimes really be stopped in their tracks by this type of approach).
Building a trusting relationship with you is the most important thing right now and anything you can do to subtly do this is worthwhile. My two came to me far too independent for their age and having learned very early on never to rely on anyone else. I can't remember which book says it but our children need to learn to be dependent on us (in the way a much younger child would have done naturally) before they can have any hope of being truly independent. When mine wouldn't eat much in the early days, I used to sit them on my knee or sit next to them and feed them (if I was quick enough to avoid it going airbourne across the kitchen!) I'd openly say to them that being fed was something they probably missed out on and that it was good for them to have it now. We had lots of resistance initially but we would take turns or they'd choose bits off my plate they wanted and I'd feed them that - mine had never used cutlery before though, or sat down at a table to eat so maybe a bit different. We did this for lots of things and still do now when we are in times of stress.
My two often resisted a bedtime story (or anything that might have seemed scarily nurturing!) but I would say 'Oh, that's a shame because I love reading a good book before bedtime. I tell you what, I want to read it anyway so you just lie on your bed for a minute and I'll read it just for myself (quietly but out loud) then I'll give you a goodnight hug after that'. That usually worked and they would inevitably be hanging off their beds looking and listening.
I think sometimes in the early days you have to keep on subtly offering all the nurturing opportunities but with a slight 'get out clause' for them if they don't yet feel safe enough to allow themselves to take part; so you still do them and are setting them into your famuily routine but you allow the child to access it fully at their own speed.
Sorry, lots of rambling! You sound like you are doing so well, just keep it all slow and steady and Incy will soon learn the expectations.
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Post by mudlark on Nov 24, 2013 22:15:56 GMT
We have had lapwing and peewit for 5 weeks now....someone said to me that only put rules in that you need them to keep.... so they MUST hold my hand on the pavement must have a bath or wash twice a week.. they must eat the food I put in front of them.. ( alternative is nothing or oat biscuit and bannna..) I must put on Lapwings ezxma cream...these went in from day one...and I have stuck by them....had some tantrums from Lapwing....but she has to know who is in control.. or else she wont feel safe.... she now knows that mummy is iron mummy and will not bend on these rules! Its hard work.... and feels mean but in the long run children who have been though tough stuff appreciate someone taking control and making safe decisions.
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Post by mudlark on Nov 24, 2013 22:21:56 GMT
one last thing.....me and mr mudlark do a lot of ignoring....we are actually aware of it all but we talk....about anything and nothing....it seems to allow LO's the space to get on with things.... it can be tedious...but if you can keep up a conversation ignoring the behaviour....I mean for 10 mins or more... it can help... its all trial and error... what works on one day then doesn't work at all the next!
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Post by oysterbabe on Nov 24, 2013 22:30:56 GMT
I agree with Leo. I was told firm boundaries worked for my two. Yes they did but I was sargeant major mummy, wanting to head off dissent in the ranks. My two had each other to grieve with and get support from (in bizarre passive aggressive ways) but Incy has no one. I would not take away the bath or the story because of food things... I doubt it makes much sense it him as they are not related are they? I would do wondering and talking aloud about possible feelings/emotions rather than taking out nurture and cuddle opportunities. Story time was the best bit of my day with a twin snuggled up each side with them drinking their milk... Then it descended into chaos upstairs in their bedroom! Lol.
Be easy on yourself and remember Incy is new it all this and needs a lot of patient guidance and a happy mummy!
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Post by happyone on Nov 24, 2013 22:36:26 GMT
Very basic advice but
Never say no unless you can stick with it
Xxxx
Try to rest
Xxxx
Cuddle cuddle cuddle
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Post by sooz on Nov 25, 2013 12:38:26 GMT
I don't think it's a case of incy messing you about, I think he's still finding his feet, and you can help him to do that by being consistent but maybe not in a 'consequences' type way. I think there is a middle ground here.
with my ds, if he's not eaten his dinner, or much of it, I will encourage him but if not then there is nothing else to eat, but I will say something like, that's ok if you are not hungry, don't worry. If he then asks for anything else then I'll say oh dear, I can't give you anything else sweetheart as you are full up already. Sometimes he'll then eat up, sometimes not. If he does eat all his veg, then it's praise and a small treat. So the outcome is the same but he's not lost anything he was going to have.
if he asks me for a biscuit during the day I might say 'yes you can darling, as soon as you've done x or y I will give you 2 biscuits'.
i guess what I'm trying to say is go for the positives every time, you are still in control.
From your post I think you seem quite anxious to prove a point with your ds, that you are in charge and won't take any nonsense. Sorry if I've misread that. It's just that I went through this myself, I was anxious to show I had it all under control and my ds wasn't going to muck me about. I think reading Margot Sutherlands 'what every parent should know' was a real light bulb moment for me and literally changed my parenting style and in hindsight it was the best thing ever. There had been something in me that needed that control. I also think that your hubby intervening knocked you a bit. It would have done with me too.
i had an interesting conversation a couple of years ago with a physc, ds had had an assessment done and it showed he didn't trust adults to take care of his needs. I was a bit confused and pointed out that I couldn't see how I could do more for him, I helped him wash, dress, brush his teeth, made sure he had healthy food to eat etc... The psych said, actually they are YOUR needs. Pardon? YOU need him to get dressed, YOU need him to brush his teeth, YOU need him to wash, what about HIS needs? I was a bit taken aback, but when I thought about it he was right. Now life does get in the way, of course there are things you need him to do, but maybe sometimes, instead of eating their veg, they just need a hug.
and, you are doing a fab job, just ease up on yourself a bit, you will find the way that works for you all xx
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Post by spideress on Nov 25, 2013 21:19:34 GMT
From your post I think you seem quite anxious to prove a point with your ds, that you are in charge and won't take any nonsense. Sorry if I've misread that. It's just that I went through this myself, I was anxious to show I had it all under control and my ds wasn't going to muck me about. I would agree with that. I am also aware I am *REALLY* tired so not being as patient as I normally would be. He starts school next Monday so I am hoping to have some proper "catch up with life" time and a bit of sleep etc. |
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Post by swimchic on Nov 25, 2013 21:27:28 GMT
Incy sounds very much like Pink..
School was great for her as it gave her consistency, routine and boundaries.She is also 4.
I stuck to the routine solidly for the first two months and she now knows what is going to happen. I also give her choices, only 2, but it works. She is very strong willed and it is hard. But you must stick it out and follow through. So for example tonight I said "Pink you have 2 choices. One to eat your veg and you can have the cake you made today or not eat your veg and there is no cake"..Funnily enough she ate every bit of her tea and enjoyed her cake.
Please feel free to pm me anytime, its nice to chat to a fellow adopter with the same age child. All the adopters I know have children a lot younger.
Hope that school goes well.
Swimchic
x
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Post by kstar on Nov 25, 2013 21:49:39 GMT
Starlet resisted lots of things to start with. The best advice in the end came from mum, who said as a single parent you have to pick your battles. Bedtimes were my nightmare, so I focused on them til they were right. As she eased into full time school, mornings became the crucial bit to avoid being late.
I hope you have a good phased introduction to school - starlet wanted to go full time from day one, but we took about seven weeks to get that far and it worked brilliantly!
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Post by abiee on Nov 25, 2013 22:42:47 GMT
I think everything has pretty much been said very well
I agree that the relationship is everything and I would strongly recommend Alfie Kohn unconditional parenting - it is such a good perspective
I try to avoid direct confrontation. I doesnt mean I am a walk over or we dont have boundaries but in our house there are no winners from direct confrontation
Try and have fun and relax every day and enjoy being a parent
The theraplay activities can be good for short bursts of fun
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Post by sooz on Nov 26, 2013 19:21:36 GMT
Oh yes spideress, tiredness is a real killer, take any opportunity to take a break, nap, spoil yourself and have some time for yourself. Works wonder! Xx  |
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Post by spideress on Nov 26, 2013 21:28:46 GMT
I hope you have a good phased introduction to school - starlet wanted to go full time from day one, but we took about seven weeks to get that far and it worked brilliantly! He has 1 week of part time so just the mornings with lunch then I pick him up then he should be full time school the week after. He just did full time school for the first term of this year whilst in FC so he should be "used" to it. The nightmare will be getting him up, dressed, breakfast, teeth clean in time for 8.25am to get him in the car for school. I cant imagine what time we would have to start if we were WALK to school - probably have to get him up at 2am! |
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Post by leo on Nov 26, 2013 22:53:34 GMT
Just to throw a spanner in the works but...
I would really think very carefully about starting a child full time at school at this time of year; the routine and structure that is normally there will probably already have gone to pieces in the general mayhem that is Christmas in a primary school. It may be beneficial to think about staying part time until the end of term - maybe mornings only.
Not sure if that's possible or would work for you but just a thought (based on many years as a primary teacher and also having two boys now who are not coping at all with school because of 'Christmas' - and are currently down to two half days and two full days each week in order to help them manage).
Sorry.
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Post by spideress on Nov 26, 2013 23:00:28 GMT
Just to throw a spanner in the works but... I would really think very carefully about starting a child full time at school at this time of year; the routine and structure that is normally there will probably already have gone to pieces in the general mayhem that is Christmas in a primary school. It may be beneficial to think about staying part time until the end of term - maybe mornings only. Not sure if that's possible or would work for you but just a thought (based on many years as a primary teacher and also having two boys now who are not coping at all with school because of 'Christmas' - and are currently down to two half days and two full days each week in order to help them manage). Sorry. His SW and the mental health woman were all in the meeting when it was decided to do a week part time then full time after that but I think if we find he is not coping with going full time the school will be flexible in allowing him different times until Christmas break. They said he is not legally required to do full time school until January term as he is 5 in March 2014 and they say its the term in which he is 5 which "counts" for the legal side |
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Post by leo on Nov 26, 2013 23:16:51 GMT
It's actually the term after he is 5 - so summer term 2014. Mine are well beyond that age and luckily the Head is supportive and allows it on mental health grounds - both for my boys and their LSAs!
Professionals for us also wanted the boys to start full time after only two weeks with me. Ironically it took us six months to get them a school place but this worked out for the best in the end as it gave us lots of time together. Two years later they have not yet made it to full time!
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Post by kstar on Nov 26, 2013 23:22:19 GMT
My SW said that legally children placed for adoption are allowed up to six months break from education with the support of all agencies involved! Starlet is extremely bright, high functioning, absolutely adores school, settled quickly... But looking back I can't tell you how much good it did us having all that extra time. She did week one just one visit for a couple of hours with me, week two three mornings but I picked up before lunch, week three all five mornings but with early pick ups, week four she stayed for lunch twice, week five she stayed for lunch every day, week six she finally did a couple of school days as normal, but even by that stage we were going in late and I was picking up early because she didn't like the hustle and bustle on the playground with parents etc...
Ignore all the advice from anywhere else and take as long as you can cope with him full time at home... Believe me, you will never regret it and it can't do any harm at that age! Starlet's academic progress dipped slightly to start with but she is absolutely thriving now. Not only did the extra time benefit the two of us and our attachment, it also gave us the luxury of afternoon visits to other close members of our support network to form those oh so crucial relationships... Meaning I now have four or five people I trust enough with Starlet and who she is comfortable with to manage a couple of hours to myself sometimes...
Please please please don't rush!!!!!!!!
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Post by larsti on Nov 26, 2013 23:34:09 GMT
Hi spideress
Firstly...Congratulations!
You've had lots of good advice already so I won't add my tuppence worth, except to say what Leo says is very wise and I agree with her, but maybe its too late to change tack? Well worth considering and having a chat with SW about, IMHO.
I remember so well when Dash was placed with us aged 4 1/2, I seemed to spend most of my energy keeping calm and ignoring some of the things he said and did. I was not going to get into battles with him. In fact I could do with giving myself a refresher course now!
Also something I found so helpful that someone said once was, instead of saying...'if you don't do x you can't have y', or 'if you don't hurry up and do/eat X there won't be time for Y', you can say, 'when we've done X, we'll do Y' or 'after you've done X, it will be time for Y' Its a bit more positive and subtle. There's still routine in that there is a predictable sequence, but the timing might not be the same every time.
Don't forget (as someone else said) you can allow them to regress and spoon feed them, do things for them, if they'll let you! If Incy wants help getting dressed for example, you can help him even if he is quite capable of doing it himself. The need might be an emotional one, not a practical one. (This might help with getting ready for school).
Golden Rule.....look after you (and DH!)
HTH
Larsti
PS you got sixpence worth!
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Post by phoebe on Nov 27, 2013 0:43:20 GMT
The very short and honest answer is - years!
You've had good advice from others already. The critical points are that Incy is a baby in a big boys clothing, controlling behaviour comes from fear and consequences only work if you have the concepts of permanence, constancy and cause and effect - of which Incy has none!
I am totally in agreement that ou should aim for routine, purely because it makes his day predictable and reduces his anxiety.
I have been where you are and am happy to admit I did not get it right. I followed opinion at the time and tried to encourage compliant behaviour.What Incy needs is sensory experiences which allow him to develop his attachment to you. Every time you punish him you push him away and make it harder for him to trust you to look after him, escalating his controlling behaviour. His food is one of his most important sensory experiences so far, and it's going right to his subconscious. If you start taking away some of that comfort, he may not cope. You don't punish a weaning baby for rejecting food, you keep relaxed, go back a step, then try again in a few weeks.
Incy is perhaps ready for school academically but probably emotionally way off, so if you go ahead with starting F/T in two weeks expect huge fallout in future. School may well not cope - he will need a huge amount of support. If you haven't already I'd ask about theraplay. It;s spot on for Incy's age, all about sensory experiences and nurture.
I'd also reflect on the issue that's coming up of roles for you and Mr Spider; Incy is clearly going straight into splitting, which isn't a conscious choice - it's a way for him to make sure his needs are met. You and Mr Spider need to really work at the "united front" for Incy to get it and feel safe.
Don't beat yourself up - it's really hard. You just need to think that however hard it is for you, you have enough experience and emotional literacy to weather it. Incy is coming at this relationship from a very dark place. He will need years to get past his distrust and trauma. You are not aiming for a compliant child, but one who knows he is loved and can reciprocate that love. Then he will be a functional human being. Take it slowly, expect absolutely no return on your investment for a very long time. Work on sharing sensory experiences. Make sure Incy has lots of transitional objects to help him keep you in mind when he is at school. Don't stress him if you don't have to. Remember little babies need to eat little and often - at a healthy two years, every couple of hours. Incy needs to be a baby before he can grow up healthy. It's best to do this now. He needs lots of gentle ryhthms in his life - familiar sounds, lots of rocking, sing song "baby" voices, exaggerated facial expressions . . .everything he has missed from birth.
Don't see it as a battle, but as a journey you are on together. You are his guide to navigate an unfamiliar world over which he has no control.This needs to be a very gentle and nurturing time for him.I'd look again at Dan Hughes and Holly Van Gulden for the right way to parent Incy. Please forget any notion of him being "on age" yet - he won't be for a long time, and if he appears to be he will be under enormous strain holding it together. Give him time to regress and rebuild some positive synapses.
Good luck x
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