Parental authority

We too struggled with this as AD was/is controlling and defiant. Taking things away had no impact on improving behaviour the next time as there is an inability to learn from mistakes and pleasure in creating a bit of chaos. We too wondered what impact this would have on our AS and whether he would think he could follow suit but this hasn’t been the case.

How does DS2 react to the conflict? Does he to try to copy DS1 behaviour or does he approach things differently? We have found our AS to be very different to AD – he hated all the conflict and tried to be peacemaker. He knows how much we have been upset by AD’s behaviour and in amongst all the mayhem has somehow developed quite a good (not perfect) moral core and can cope with the give and take of being in a family much better.

You will probably get accused of favouritism but could the focus be turned more on the positive behaviour of DS2 than the destructive bits of DS1? So hard I know. I am not sure you can make DS1 understand; just keep modelling good choices, choose your battles and stick to what you believe is right, they will not be unreasonable values.

First children in families always have the hard job of testing and finding out where the boundaries are as parents learn on the job, subsequent children do have an easier ride as they have watched what was has been permitted and can then decide whether it is worth the challenge!

I think we get such a double whammy of teenage stuff plus all the early trauma stuff it is a wonder any of us are still standing – we fell apart as a family, now rebuilding in a very bumpy way but getting there. AS often thinks AD is a plonker, although she is still his sister and to be honest if he can cope with her then he will be able to cope with anyone this world throws at him!

As they have got older we have shifted from being more concerned about what goes on in the home rather than outside it – you have no control when they are out and about so we have tried to let them get on with it with sometimes a scarily scant knowledge of what is going on. Our home is our castle so we tend to reinforce the premise that if your behaviour affects people at home then it needs to be appropriate. AD is given clear choices when she is here.

Interestingly very recently AD asked for something we thought was unreasonable so we said we didn’t give permission. After threats and raised voices (hers not mine) a white flag was raised and I said ok I will stop caring do whatever you want, you have your way – “but I want you to care” was the little voice that came back at me! She still did what she wanted though and there was very little we could do about it. It was outside of home. Talked to AS about it and he kind of understands.

Ultimately they have to make their own choices it is when it impacts on life at home that it is hard so hugs coming your way.

Mooster x

PS I have used the “tea will be in five minutes, before then please can you make sure you have done….” If they don’t do it then their tea is not served….food is so important to them the task is always completed!

We would infinitly prefer not to involve him in anything to do with ds2 , because he insists on taking over our parental role, but it is very difficult. He refuses to stay out of it, and it is impossible to deal with things while he is interfering.he stands there and tells ds2 off, and argues with us if we tell him to please leave that to us. We end up having to deal with him rather than ds2 as we cannot get a word in edgeways. Part of it is that he knows ds2 can be volatile and he worries about our safely, but part is his need to control and especially as he was the one caring for his birth siblings in bf , so he has instinctive carer role. On this occasion the item was put in his room since it's the one place ds2 won't go, but definately will not do that agin, we live and learn.
initial refusal was at tea time, ds2 just sat and didn't say anything ( a big improvement on his part) later when I spoke to ds1 it was ds2 bedtime . Ds1 insisted on having the conversation outside ds2 door, wouldn't leave it till later ( I was there waiting for ds2 to get ready for bed) or go out of earshot. Ds2 meanwhile managed to trip over his trousers and bang his hip on the dressing table!!!

Hi, Pingu -

I've been thinking about this a lot.

Let me start by saying that I don't think that DS1 is going to be able to change. I know that's a pain in the neck for the whole family, but sometimes it's the truth.

The poor lad has a whole pile on his shoulders. He feels responsible for his brother and he feels responsible for you. That's a heck of a lot for a young lad to carry. When I was a teenager, my father was an alcoholic and I felt responsible for my mum. I'm glad that I didn't have any younger siblings to also feel responsible for, because that was big enough!

Just as you're on here feeling frustrated because you can't get HIM to act as you think he should, he feels the same about his brother but doesn't have your knowledge and experience or anywhere to go to ask for help or understanding. So he has this huge burden and no one to help him with it. I was totally alone with my feelings and it was really tough. I wish I'd know about support groups for teenage kids of alcoholics. It might have helped me a lot. Struggling on alone is really difficult!

I think that what he needs at the moment is love and acceptance. I felt shame and guilt that I couldn't stop my father from drinking or do some of the things that my mother asked me to (like climb in the bathroom window to let the bath out so that he didn't drown). He probably feels shame and guilt that he can't get his brother to do what he's told. To be told on top that HE needs to change (corollary: there's something wrong with HIM) will make him feel even worse.

I don't know about you, but I don't tend to seek out relationship with people who make me feel worse about myself. So if he feels like that, he may feel less able to come to you about the issues in life and to be open with you if you're trying to get him to change.

So maybe the way forward is to apologise for the other night: for putting him in that situation. Add in some words of love and acceptance. And work on yourselves to accept him the way he is. He doesn't choose to feel responsible: it's just how he is.

Love,

Corkwing

I am sorry Corkwing but I disagree. I don't expect he can change ( in the sense of stop caring) and I know he cares about ds2 but. He also knows that ds1 needs to know that hubby and I are caring for him, not him, or gets distressed, he has seen and been told that many times. He was asked nicely to return it as it had actually been confiscated for longer that originally we had said.
Basically , unless he can triust us to do the parenting of ds2 its a nightmare. We do negotiate things with him, age appropriately, when it's about him, and we have a good relationship with him, and he is quite responsible, but ds2 gets very unsettled when ds1 tries to be in charge of him and when ds1 tells hubby and I what to do about ds2
It's not a question of anyone apologising. He needs to let us care , or be in charge of ds2 whatever you call it , or ds2 does not feel safe, due to his background.

That's why I posted, for ideas on this , because I am not sure.
Fortunately the age difference normally helps as ds1 stays in his room a lot like a typical l teenager, playing computer games and doing his homework. Also goes out a lot with friends and does rugby. Recently he has been in more as he has prelims coming up and is worried about them. We have talked to him about this and reassured him it's ok we will be proud of him as long as he does his best, but he still worries and all we can do is support him. We also try to address issues with ds2 when he is not around.
But occasionally there is this type of conflict. His birth mum, whom he dislikes intensely failed to keep them safe, and stepfather was violent to him. I think he just doesn't trust us to deal competently with ds2, especially when he doesn't see quick results, and as we all know there are no quick fixes with these kids.
But beyond keeping things separate where possible I am not sure that there is anything we can do.
Not. Sure if is was knock on effect or unrelated but Ds2 got upset at scouts last night, got a bit frustrated and threw a pen, which cut a boys lip. He was hugely upset as I don't think he meant to hurt the boy. I let one of the other leader s deal with it and he is on a last warning as he has been volatile before, but when we got home he wasn't speaking, just indicating his wants by hand signals, and he was stil subdued this morning when hubby saw him to school. He had pe first thing, which may help, and school haven't contacted us with any problems, but things are clearly tough for him at the moment. I can do without ds1 getting involved.

Hi, Pingu -

"One of the things that frustrates me about the various experts info, is that it may explain why they do what they do, which may help our understanding or patience, but really that is little use without ways to improve the situation." Totally agree! I won't go into it here, but there's a thread under "Adopters" called something like "Is therapeutic parenting too big an ask?" where you can see my views if you're interested.

With DS1 trying to parent DS2...

Well, you've worked out option 1, which is separation. In our household the issues were so great that we (finally) worked out that DS1 needed to be separated from his siblings permanently, which has resulted in him moving back into care. Hopefully things aren't that extreme in your household. But it's worth having a real think about it to see if they are.

To get more separation... are there possibilities like converting a garage into an annex or having one of those log cabins built in your garden for him?

Option 2: Ignore it. You say that this sort of conflict is "occasional". So does it need dealing with explicitly, or do you want do deal with it just because it's a real pain when it happens? (And to whom?)

Option 3: Work on DS2, so that he understands what's happening and helping him to cope with the situation. No idea how you do that, I'm afraid!

Option 4: You could try PLACE with DS1. Playful, Loving, Accepting, Curious and Empathetic. Instead of telling him to stop trying to parent DS2 (which, as you've said, isn't working. Einstein defined madness as doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results), how about treating it with loving, accepting humour? Easy for me to write. Incredibly hard to do in the heat of the moment! It would probably work a lot better if you could talk to DS1 about it outside of the situation. Something along the lines of, "When DS2's kicking off, it really activates your daddy part, doesn't it? It's like you turn into Daddy Pig (or some other father figure from a film or book)." Then, when he's wading in, "Oh, DS1, your Daddy Pig part is really coming out again, isn't it?" I certainly can't guarantee instant results with that one, but it may be worth a try IF you think it fits you and your personality and you can do it in the long term.

Ossicle = possible. ( non predictive text !!!)

Or ot !