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Post by sockthing on Nov 15, 2014 19:47:38 GMT
I think about this quite often. If I was auditioned to be Kippers parent as he is right now, I would fail , I'm sure of it. It upsets me, but then I think, not many people would pass actually. Not that he's not a lovely lovely boy inside somewhere, but it's covered in so many difficulties, and there are times, if I'm honest that I wonder why I love him and where we are headed. There I've said it.  I have really lost my therapeutic mojo at the moment. I was thinking about Time-In, and I just thought it's all very well, but how do you achieve time- in with a child that doesn't want you to touch him, that has demand avoidance, that is dis regulated at the drop of a hat, who doesn't even want you in the same room as him and yells at you to get out?? If you open your mouth to speak to him he growls and puts his hands into claws and pulls his most threatening face. How do you stay therapeutic when your 4 year old puts you down verbally several times a day, telling you you are bad, that you are smelly, that you are a poo, that you're not strong, that he only loves daddy. How do you stay therapeutic? I mean not just in terms of keeping your patience but what do you actually DO. Besides which, if we don't show them they are upsetting us, how are they supposed to understand emotions? We always moan about our children's lack of emotional literacy or empathy or social skills or whatever, but if we stay saintly and just keep saying I love and want to be with you, what does that teach them about functioning in a relationship? Yes. - I know it teaches them that we love them and forgive them. .... But will it not also neglect to teach them their responsibility in a relationship....we can keep saying it in words "that's not kind" etc, but there's nothing like the power of seeing someone really upset by what you have said or done to make you understand its impact. And shame - I read somewhere about shame being a positive emotion because it forms the beginnings of a conscience ...that makes sense to me. So if you go to such lengths to avoid shaming our children, how do they develop a sense of the impact off their behaviour and others rights being as important as theirs? And how about us? Are we supposed to be emotional punchbags? We get such conflicting advice and theories, and we adopters put ourselves under phenomenal pressure to get it all right, often working in the dark and unsupported, and out of synch with our conventional friends. How do we keep faith that what we are doing is right, when the progress is so slow?? Do we second guess our children's motives/emotions too much? Do we over analyse our parenting and that makes us hesitant and weaker? Long post, big questions! |
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Post by flutterby on Nov 15, 2014 20:03:04 GMT
Sockthing, I think you have expressed what a lot of us feel, I certainly have done so. Especially lately. Thankfully, we do get good days and I hand onto them and cherish them. It sounds like you have an even tougher time.
Very relevant questions, not sure I have any answers. But I have often asked: where are the books for adopters? Not on how to best parent our children, but the ones helping us to take care of ourselves and stay sane. The ones where we get reassurance that it is ok to be human and which acknowledge what we go through.
xx
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Post by mudlark on Nov 15, 2014 20:17:21 GMT
Sockthing, I have thought these things many times, not just thought them but felt them too. It feels very lonely sometimes, parenting such damaged children.
I do not have any big answers to your questions as they are questions I ask too of myself. I think therapeutic parenting has value and does work. I also think it is not possible to be that detached, I think you have to remain a little emotionally detached in order to do therapeutic parenting, and well, being human its just not possible, particularly when you are trying to be a mummy as well. It's different for the social workers and the therapists, they can come along and do their hour of theraplay and go away again. We do not have that as an option.
I am not therapeutic all the time, lots of the time I am cross and irritable and fed up, and I show it. I agree with you that there has to be a level of consequence to their actions, for in the real world, the world they will have to live in one day there will be no therapeutic leeway, it will harder than that and they need to be prepared.
No answers just I think we have to have a toolkit for parenting, for me just one of those tools is therapeutic parenting.
It's such hard work. I am sorry you are feeling low.
Mudlark
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Post by serrakunda on Nov 15, 2014 20:48:02 GMT
I think it's unrealistic to expect that you can be theraputic all the time. I certainly can't. Simba's behaviour is not as extreme as kippers, but being here on my on my own it's very wearing at times, particularly when he persists in repeating the same behaviour again and again.
We have had a difficult week, I know he is processing what's happening with dad and little bro'. But he has been angry towards me, argumentative, awkward, by friday I was just plain knackered, irritable, fed up. We went out to the movies tonight, shared a box of pop corn, McDonald's for tea, a chat about our favourite bits of the movie. We are friends again. For now.
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Post by larsti on Nov 15, 2014 23:20:01 GMT
hugs sockthing (((sockthing)))
I sometimes think DH and I know a lot of the theory but not sure how therapeutic we actually are in practice! I just hope that some of the reading/training and stuff percolates down into actual practice.
I have never forgotten something corkwing wrote on the old boards about the fact that anything we do for our children is miles better than what they would have had in birth family. That is true.
And when we do get cross or irritable (when I say 'we' I mean all of us on here) we are not malicious, we have a level of control, we model saying sorry and forgiving each other. So we need to cut ourselves some slack!
Now (whisper it) the theories will change and go 'out of fashion' so we don't necessarily have to follow the slavishly. We just do the best we can, which to borrow Donatella's phrase (on here or the other boards?) We are bl**dy amazing.
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Post by wibbley on Nov 15, 2014 23:25:50 GMT
I'm usually far too cross to be therapeutic  |
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Post by runmum on Nov 16, 2014 8:31:34 GMT
Just had similar conversation with DH who I am trying to get to join this forum - he needs to talk to other men who know what its like about the hell we go through. Fact is the more therapeutic we are the more chance of healing for our children. However we are human!!!! We suffer abuse from our children but they abuse us because they are damaged. It's a vicious and virtuous circle depending how you look at it. Woke up this morning and the first thing I did was cry. Last night was awful, DH at the end of his tether nothing seems to be getting better the tiny bits of personal life DH and I had are being eaten away. Our children are sucking the life out of us but yes we have to try to get resourced and be as therapeutic as we can. Only people like the others on this forum can possibly understand what it's like. Although there are parallels with people who look after older relative with dementia etc who give and give but get abuse. We must fight for more help for people in the most challenged 30% who cope with relentless difficulties and we must keep supporting each other and we must keep being therapeutic parents.
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Post by ham on Nov 16, 2014 10:37:32 GMT
I found theraptuic parenting got easier ( 22 years in ) as it became more natural. In the beginning so hard as I had to relearn my own natural ways of things. I dont get it right all of the time ,that is only human and our children need to know the rest of the world will not always be so understanding of them as we are.
When I get it wrong I apologise to them because it is ok to be wrong some times.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 11:05:04 GMT
What a great thread Sockthing, some great replies that I would love the "profs" involved in our childrens lives to read.
I do think theraputic parenting is helpful, but it is a very hard ask and very hard to maintain in the face of constant abuse when you are fighting a battle alone with very little support or understanding from those profs who watch from the outside and then deem us to be "failing parents". They don't actually ever use those words, but you feel it all the same when you sit in endless meetings trying to get help and support for your children, begging and pleading for just a bit of respite, only to be told "we don't do respite, if you are not coping we can take your child into care to give you a break".
They don't get it. We don't want our children taken away. What we want is some understanding, some recognition of the lives we are living, some proper adoption trained support, not your average parenting course or have you read this book or that book?
If you are a FC and are struggling with exhaustion, they will give you some respite, but if you are an adopter, there is none, I know because I asked and was told no. How is that fair? How do they expect us to be theraputic and carry on without a break?
I also think every prospective adopter should be sent on a theraputic parenting course BEFORE their children actually come home, so that they can learn the principles of it in advance, as so many adopters only really learn about it from forums like this, ages after their children come home, after the honeymoon period is over and their children are displaying challenging behaviours and the SW's and profs can't be seen for dust. If they had training in advance then maybe they would cope better from day one and would not feel such failures when putting their hands up and saying "I can't cope".
This is where forums like this are so useful, we can confess when we are struggling, we can ask for advice and help from those who ade actually living on the front line so to speak, not just from people who sit in their offices dispensing well meaning advice, but who haven't actually lived it on a daily basis and who go home to their peaceful homes and delightful well behaved children everynight.
If I had a pound for every professional and SW who has said to me "I had thought of adopting before I was involved in adoption, but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't do it", I'd be rich, but it makes me incredibly sad that there is this great divide between those of us living it, and those supposed to be supporting us. Conversations like this thread may help to close this divide and give them a greater insight into how they could help us, we can but try. Let's hope some of them are on here reading this as guests.
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Post by swimchic on Nov 16, 2014 14:02:58 GMT
Great post!
I'm currently doing a parenting workshop for adopters and not only is it refreshing to know that you aren't out there on your own, but actually therapeutic parenting is tough!
This web site has helped me more than anything though as someone out there gets what you are going through, the support is amazing and there are always helpful tips to pick up on. :-)
Swimchic
PS..The other day I did say to Dh ( after Pink was having her 5th meltdown of the morning) s*d this therapeutic parenting lark, I need chocolate! Oh and s*d the diet! Lol
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Post by doubletrouble on Nov 16, 2014 14:04:29 GMT
It can certainly be nay on impossible to be therapeutic all the time, I don't think any of us are. You talked about how to react when bombarded by abuse and compared to Daddy all the time. I've had loads of this with both ours but more our DS. We have had phases of it and on looking back I think my tack tick of ignoring the abuse and not responding worked in the long term. I would stop what I was doing, walk out the room, return home leaving the trolley of shopping, turn the car round and not going to the park/play place etc. I would say absolutely nothing and that would flumex them completely and stop them in their tracks. I would only say if pressed 'I'm not speaking/going anywhere etc. when you behave/speak to me like this.'
I really don't think it teaches them empathy etc. by letting them know they have hurt you. I feel it gives them power and they may do it even more next time. If I was upset/ill/hurt myself the reactions from our children were not 'normal' One would start to scream and get upset herself, bring me her teddy and then run off. Her brother would realise that I was venerable and would use the opportunity to cause even more mayhem.
My children have had very low self esteem and don't feel they are deserving of anything good happening to them so I really don't think shaming them would be good for them.
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Post by mooster on Nov 16, 2014 14:20:16 GMT
This is a fascinating thread and I often go round in circles searching for answers that always seem that bit too far out of reach!
I blubbed on my Mum yesterday and said I wanted everything to go away as I felt so manipulated and controlled by my AD. I bounce between attempting therapeutic input and being so hacked off I can find nothing nice to say about anything! Ham you give me hope though – 22 years in, only another 11 years to go and I might have it cracked!
I know AD is so damaged but she carries on as though nothing else matters but her and a look of hatred one minute turns into giggles and charm the next – do I feel battered and bashed? Yes but I still seem to put up with it and try and make a difference and support her and her choices. It is when she has got older striving for more independence that we have really struggled to be therapeutic as her physical safety became an issue and she just did not understand why we would be concerned for her well-being. Our care, concern and interest is viewed as control.
AD admitted herself she is charming to everyone else so then in times of crisis I start to wonder if I am doing more harm than good by actually hanging on in there! Upsetting me is a real control theme for her as this then upsets DH so we continue to try to find a balance between keeping us sane and letting her do what she wants with as many safety nets in place as possible - ultimately she is a survivor. She is not living the life the life we had dreamed for her, it is so sad the opportunities that have gone begging but perhaps it is the best she can manage at the moment.
On better days and with my AS I know I am doing good even if it has been at the expense of my health, almost my marriage, my social life and my sanity!
On the plus side I have a whole load of knowledge about brain development to challenge and shame(!) any SW who tries to tell me AD is a typical teenager………..
Mooster x
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Post by corkwing on Nov 16, 2014 14:38:25 GMT
Yes, it is. It's impossible. Even in Dan Hughes' book, the mum - who's supported by St. Dan and seems sometimes to have sprouted a pair of wings herself - sometimes snaps and loses it. Holly van Gulden tells about having a conversation with two other therapists about a case where she didn't now what to do, trying to pretend that it was about a client and not herself, and them seeing straight through her.
Therapists do it for an hour at a time, have a break and have supervisors to offload onto. They don't do it unsupported 24 hours a day. They couldn't. They'd crack.
You're a human. You have limits. It's OK to do what you can and not to do what you can't. It made a huge difference to me when I worked on that with my life coach and managed to drop my guilt about not being perfect. It's one of the things that I love to do with my clients when I'm life coaching myself.
With time in... and Larsti saying about things going out of fashion... Bruce Perry yesterday was talking about traumatised children who see adults as scary. Whilst most children feel safe when they're with their parents and explore from there, traumatised children can feel safest when AWAY from a parent and explore getting closer to a parent. If we overreact to that and try to produce too much intimacy then we can actually drive them away. Time in for those children would, I guess, result in more disregulation, not less.
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Post by gilreth on Nov 16, 2014 18:07:30 GMT
Listening to Bruce Perry yesterday was incredibly interesting in how he was talking about stepping back and being in parallel to traumatised children. Also of the importance of regulation and some ideas about how to achieve that (although I missed that bit as Sqk needed me so had to leave before very last session). Mind you currently watching Sqk run laps round a rug as have realised it is part of his self-regulation - we just had to find a safer place for him to do so than round railway on lounge floor when I have laptop on my lap. Yes I know - screen time with my child around - but he is with DH...
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Post by esty (archive) on Nov 16, 2014 22:16:36 GMT
I believe that therapeutic parenting comes after boundaries are set. I truly believe children need to feel safe and 'held' and I don't mean physically before any therapeutic parenting can go ahead. Boundaries can be set nicely, however I feel children need to have their day/time/activities fully organised/controlled at the beginning then as they relax? into the routine then you can challenge/change. This belief comes after years of working with very challenging children and adults, some with mental health diagnosises and many with some kind of learning difficulty, not neccessarily delayed. I think that wondering sometimes makes children more fearful as if you don't know how can they. Sometimes I think its best to say I see this going on and I think we/you need to do this. I may be going against the grain and will only know when LM is about 25 but taking a firm stance and routine approach I am seeing big leaps of managing and relaxing. We are just now starting to create occasions of wondering and exploring. Before now he was just too angry and confrontational to listen/accept any other view than his own. We can joke about each other's failings now and that has been a huge achievement. Again I'll let you know when he's 25 whether I'm anywhere near the mark!
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Post by topcat on Nov 16, 2014 23:05:23 GMT
It's a head funk quite honestly.
Seriously lost it last night after warm and fuzzy feelings the night before, overwhelmed with guilt and feeling inadequate till this evening and successful solo bedtime after which I feel pretty sure I have superhuman powers.
The reflection, analysis and effort to understand wears me down as much as all the nightmare behaviour.
Great posts all.
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stardog
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Post by stardog on Nov 17, 2014 0:20:27 GMT
Sorry you feel down Sockthing. Think you have to take each situation as is comes. Sometimes Theraputic parenting may not be best answer or possible, for your own sanity as much as anything, but talking it through after can mend it.
All great posts.
This is my therapy. Knowing we are not alone in our struggles everyday. We do what we can for them and hope it will be enough to make the differnce for them to cope in the real world one day.
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Post by wibbley on Nov 17, 2014 0:38:24 GMT
I agree Esty. Without firm boundaries my boundary pushing DS is lost at sea.
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Post by leo on Nov 17, 2014 11:48:32 GMT
I'm with Esty too! Tsunami likes to just have a 'little' push against my boundaries and then when he sees they are still there, he is usually able to accept them and relax to some extent. He becomes extremely dysregulated when he does not have routine and boundaries to contain him. I can never relax boundaries - which makes life hard sometimes when you just want to be able to do something different, even something as simple as him staying up a bit later for a special occasion; it just can't happen safely in our home.
Hurricane is a complete control freak and although he likes to walk along the edge of my boundaries constantly (with the occasional vault right over the top of them!) by just tweaking the 'rules' and seeing if I notice.
In terms of therapeutic parenting, well I too hover somewhere near the boundaries of this (maybe Hurricane has learned his behaviour from me?) At times, I sit and reflect on just how much our life is different from others because of all the extra planning and organising it takes to help my two get through each day - but most of these are now just part of our family habits and routines so I don't think of them as different at all - until I see the reality of another family and their 'normal' life. What I always find interesting is that many experts only talk of one child when they promote therapeutic parenting and don's seem to have answers for 'How do you manage this with two children?' (especially those with a trauma bond).
I just do my best and do whatever seems right or whatever I can manage at the time. Sometimes that means being wonderfully thoughtful and empathic, sometimes it means being a grumpy and shouty. My guilt over the grumpy times has reduced over time as I have accepted that, sadly, I am human and no different from any other Mummy!
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Post by esty (archive) on Nov 17, 2014 14:21:26 GMT
The 'like' is for the grumpy mummy bit. I'm really grumpy and 'not in the room' at times as that is the only way I can cope. When I feel the guilt I just think 'no-one else was taking you both on so tough I'm just going to get through the way I can and that is still likely to be so much better than many other people's parenting (not neccessarily talking other adoptive parents here) and I'm in it for the long haul so I need to sit back at times or in 20 years time there will be absolutely nothing left to give to them or myself'. And for me having three guilt free hours with the horse daily and not talking kids all the time really helps. I ususally arrive on the yard sharing my daily rant with a couple of others up there, rant more likely to be about services rather than Big Fish or Little Minnow, get it off my chest then do something solely for me, I feel no guilt and then move on.
Interestingly someones just bought a friesian young horse from Holland and is getting cross because she can do nothing with it. It doesnt understand the language, shes giving hundreds of mixed messages and wants results NOW. I explained that with mine it has taken 5 months to achieve the calm of standing motionless by the mounting block for me to get on, it has taken 5 months to beable to open gates whilst on her and it is likely to take a year before I can produce a dressage test but again I'm in it for the long haul. Slow and steady. Its very like with the kids, very clear messages, expectations and boundaries and within those having fun and positive 'mad' moments. Reluctant to use the word mad but nothing really conveys the sense I mean. And also if you get it wrong retire gracefully and start again.
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Post by flowerpower on Nov 17, 2014 14:51:10 GMT
Yes but only on a good day x
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Post by mayan on Nov 17, 2014 19:23:06 GMT
Hello Sockthing - been ruminating about your post and collecting some thoughts.
Firstly some huge gentle hugs for you as you sound a tad scooped out trying to do your very best for your little one. Anything you can do to perk yourself up first as that is three quarters of the battle - if you feel like he has got you on the ropes he will put you there whatever the behaviour or assemblage of behaviours.
Considering my collection here and the fact I started down this road before the therapeutic stuff really got going proper - I kind of go with boundaries so they feel safe and contained, empathy when they need it but not excusing the behaviour and if possible pre empting triggers until they have the coping strategies. My ds for example could be very aggressive when he went into melt down when small so we could encourage him to stomp it off in the garden where he was safely contained or in the playroom if his sister was out of the way. I was just present so he couldn't hurt himself or anyone else. With the younger 3 children they just don't have the same sort of meltdowns and despite their horrendous experiences - reasoning and communicating is a doddle in comparison - so even if you are doing the whole therapeutic thing some children are just a d*mned sight harder to reach - sometimes distraction works, sometimes humour breaks the mood, sometimes if it is a prolonged spiral I would just bake and make the house smell comforting and safe and that would help enormously!!! They would destress themselves and be more reachable if that makes sense and if nothing else it helped me destress too!
I have to say it is just unbelievably hard work parenting a child that is out there on the spectrum - it is relentless, it has an intensity that sucks you dry to your bones and it is a very different kind of parenting because our parenting is far more intentional and considered which demands a lot of emotional energy and thinking and analysis time and even when we get it right, we will be reminding the child that a stranger can do this stuff for them but their bp couldn't wouldn't or whatever so even success can make them sad or mad! - and then you as mum can get it in the neck big time because as my adult dd still puts it - "I have to take it out on you because my bm isn't here for me to take it out on her". (Er no it isn't) So it is wholly natural to think what on earth am I doing (you are not alone there Sockthing however committed you are as a parent) - sometimes it is worth playing like a tag team with your partner if you can so you can step back from the firing line and recharge - right now my dd is being completely unpleasant for a variety of reasons so my dh is stepping up to the plate and I have stepped back reminding her calmly that I will not be available to be emotionally abused because she is in a bad mood as that is unacceptable - it is too wearing to be on the receiving end still after all these years and I learned my lesson with our ds and let dh step up - it shifts the dynamic and gives me a break because otherwise it is frankly completely kn*ckering and it has certainly affected my health so I have to consciously put credits into the health tank. The three younger ones on their worst day have never been anywhere near as exhausting as my older two individually and they are all complex kids!
If I have learned anything from going down this road it is that you need to look after yourself first and to acknowledge your achievements if you have managed to keep them safe from themselves for 24 hours, got them to eat and sleep even a bit because that is probably a d&mned sight more than they would ever have had elsewhere. Having seen first hand all that has happened to all the other sibs of my two adopted children who were left with their bf and who are now adults each in very sad and bad situations - the little we have managed to do in the time we had has made a difference to our two but at a huge huge cost and there are still things we just haven't been able to crack even with so called experts on board at various times (chocolate teapots the lot apart from our daughter's wonderful OT). So give yourself some credit for all that you are getting right - make yourself a list because you are getting stuff right each and every day and it does sink in, if you manage to be therapeutic some days or some hours that is helping too but even a saint couldn't manage it 24/7 and the experts only do their work in hour slots and close their files and go home. Yes we do make a difference whether as therapeutic parents or not but it is a long long haul - right now it sounds like you could do with taking a step back and getting a different perspective and not least a break somehow.
I didn't intend to be a therapeutic parent - I just wanted to give two kids a safe place which is what we have managed to do - the rest are just pluses and minuses along the way on our personal tally sheet. The experience could have been better but even on a cr&ppy day it could be so so much worse - coming to terms with that fact remains a work in progress.
Be kind to yourself Sockthing - be really really kind to yourself.
Hope my ramblings help somehow.
Mx
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Post by corkwing on Nov 18, 2014 14:41:26 GMT
I've just been watching a video by Michael Neill: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmnvLnh3ieY Part 1 18 mins 49 www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkeUFoeuoRo Part 2 27 mins 16 www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B8hSFOJKKI Part 3 39 mins 14 I think it's in part 1, he's talking about self help books. Self help books are written by people who can do "it", whatever the "it" is, and they write down what works for them. Time management books, for example, are written by people who can manage their time and tell us their way of doing it. You can get their books and do what they say and it might work for you, but it probably won't because you're not them. Similarly you can read all of the books by the Bryan Posts, Holly van Guldens, and whoever else the gurus are and you can try to implement their theories and strategies but you probably won't be able to because YOU are not Bryan Post. YOU are not Holly van Gulden. You don't have her life experiences, and support network, and intuition and whatever else it is that makes her Holly. And you'll get stressed and crabby and frustrated and defeated because you're not Bryan van Gulden and you can't do "it", or you can't see "it", or you can't understand "it". I'm not saying that those people are wrong, but that we can look at it wrongly. We can try to become them and we never will. Instead you are YOU: the amazing, unique person that God made you (or however you believe that you got here and to be you). So maybe what we need to do is to stop trying to be Holly van Post and instead be Corkwing or Sockthing or whoever else has responded to this post and just be US. For some of us, that will mean that we can help our kids six inches along the road. Others will get them a mile or two. Others may get them close to, or even make it to, the promised land, however you define that. But I can guarantee you that, because you're a great, loving, kind, caring, compassionate parent - and if you weren't you wouldn't even be bothering to read this - they will get somewhere and it will be further than if they didn't have you. And that also means that we may have to stop looking at the promised land: to change our goals. My goal has to stop being that I will produce this fictional adult, free of the pain and grief from their childhood and instead be that I have been ME and have done what I could and what I wanted to for this child and to be satisfied with that. Yes, I can pick up some tips from the experts, but I have to recognise that I can't do them all because I'm not that person. I may not even be able to do many of them. Man, I've heard so many that my brain can't hold more than a fraction! I can weave some of them into my parenting, but those have to be the ones that fit with a Corkwing. A Sockthing can probably do different ones and may not be able to do the ones that I do. Esty, for example, does firm boundaries: that's great for an Esty, and it works for her because she's an Esty. But I'm not an Esty and it wouldn't fit with me. I've tried to do that and it just did my head in! Mostly what I can do is the parenting that comes from me being me and that will have to be good enough - and actually, it could well be that it would have been better if I'd done that than that spend my life gettng stressed and upset and angry trying to be someone else. Like, I hadn't heard that walking is a great for regulation until Saturday. But out of who I am I've spent hours and hours walking with Mackerel. I used to take him out every evening and we'd just walk around the neighbourhood. I have no idea what that's done for him, or for me, but it came from me. Had I just read it in a book I could have tried to do it, but it would have been coloured with resentment and worry that I wasn't doing it right. And you know that, with experts, they won't just tell you to go for a walk, but they'll tell you where and how fast and how you're supposed to carry your body and what you're supposed to talk about and what voice to use, and I'd have been concentrating on all of those and I'd probably have messed it all up because of it. So go and be you! You are a great parent! And if you can find some tips and strategies that fit in with or extend you or that add some extra nuances to you, but which are still you, then go for it. But don't let anyone tell you that you're not good enough. |
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Post by milly on Nov 18, 2014 16:26:31 GMT
I think it depends on what you mean by it. Every expert has a different take and I guess we have all picked out things from what we have heard, read or gleaned over the years. As Corkwing says so eloquently, we are all different and have different personalities and capabilities.
It appears to me that some people think it means being empathetic, calm and able to handle every situation in a rationally thought out way every time. To me that is a totally unrealistic ask. Like it or not, I am a human being being with my own needs, desires and wants. And being a parent is my private life. I can't separate me from my role as a parent. And I certainly can't parent all the time according to some theory.
To me it is about looking at what lies behind the behaviour and trying to select the right / best approach most of the time. But I certainly don't always do that. I get mad or stressed or tired and, although I sometimes regret my actions / statements, I also believe children need to learn that other people have moods or bad days or whatever, and that they have to learn to manage those. Overall I know they know I care and want the best for them. That knowledge over rides the times when things don't go so well.
And sometimes they don't like me being unavailable either physically or emotionally but I am not here to rescue them from all their negative feelings or give them everything they need. I couldn't do that anyway. But I am here to help them learn to manage those feelings - perhaps they learn only a miniscule bit of that at a time, but over time, hopefully something will go in. And meantime I need to carry on being me and having my life too - you really do have to forgive yourself and take something for yourself.
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Post by larsti on Nov 18, 2014 21:52:41 GMT
We had a free session at Family Futures and didn't take it any further (too expensive to self fund for starters...I was shocked!)
Anyway I remember being TERRIFIED that if we did go down that route (before I found out it was not going to happen) they would say, you have to do x, y and z and that would be okay for DH but impossible for me and I would be the one at home with Dash most of the time having to try to conform to some ideal that was not me at all and I would not remember what I was supposed to be doing! I was a bit afraid they would say that when we had our PAC sessions (free thorough our LA) but they didn't.
We have had various reports which have said Dash needs x and y and z and we have read them and thought 'how very interesting', and carried on our own sweet way because maybe we were not convinced that's what he did need or it wasn't relevant because he's not at school.
I am glad that sticker charts don't work with traumatised children (although actually Dash is not totally disinterested in stickers) because I would never remember what they were supposed to be for, I would probably not be able to find the stickers (or the chart!) I would be rubbish at stickers :-)
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Post by sivier on Nov 19, 2014 10:46:57 GMT
Hey Sockthing, just caught up with this.
Massive hugs, first and foremost as all that you describe (and ask) very plainly sets out the massive ask of adoptive parents, and the toll.
I don't know the answers but they are very good questions - theory being one thing and practical reality the other. I try to be kind and therapeutic. Ha. I'm often pretty grumpy. Or just plain cross, weary and impatient.
Mayan's post was very interesting (great thread and responses) and made me think about how I might do some things in a different way if I had other children. Would this have more of a positive impact on DD, teach her more about consequences and working more around other people's needs and feelings? I don't know as I can only work with the circumstances I have.
I don't think I have much useful advice, but empathy. I do tell my DD when she has hurt my feelings though, if she is hard line rejecting me - simply that it is 'not kind', lets treat each other with kindness sort of thing. It often doesn't change what she's doing but I think she needs to learn that her behaviour does affect others. Very hard though when you are also dealing ASD/possible ASD behaviours.
xx
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Post by caledonia on Nov 19, 2014 13:06:00 GMT
hi Sockthing
like others I do think therapeutic parenting 24/7 is unrealistic no matter how hard you try, either as part of a couple or as a singleton. on a good day I manage about 90% of the time and on a really bad day about 30% of the time. Most of the time its in between. I do try and console myself that I am doing better than their birth parents would have done, and try and stop being to hard on myself but its hard. I do too think that when they enter the real world they are going to have to deal with these things so not being therapeutically parented all the time, in a safe environment is a good learning experience - I just wish it was not so hard. I had a chat with DD the other day and told her how much her abuse upset me and she was somewhat surprised to know I had feelings! no sign of a change yet though............
I am not sure, given what I know now, if I would have taken my two on. I love them dearly and wouldn't be without them for the world, but life is a constant battle at the moment. Thank goodness for the good few minutes we have now and then. They keep me going.
Hope you get the help and support you need
Cale
x
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Post by topcat on Nov 19, 2014 14:47:12 GMT
I like what Milly says about not being here to rescue them from all their negative feelings. It's a huge step to acknowledge that we can't take away all the pain or take responsibility for it.
If we're lucky they start to put the pieces together and work things out.
Brains started grumpy this morning but I decided a hug was better than me grumbling back. Then he said, 'when people shout it doesn't mean they don't love you, like when I shout at you or you shout at me, we still love each other...'
Sounds good to me:D
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Post by runmum on Nov 19, 2014 16:00:04 GMT
We are not perfect and no-one should expect us to be. I remember our boys' therapists once said "he's doing his best" about AS2 who had spent the week being extremely physically and verbally abusive to me and was now being obstructive, difficult and laughing in my face in a therapy session. Meanwhile I responded with my 1. it's going to be really great when you trust me 2. I can see your difficult part right now but I know your helpful part will be back 3. Let's see how quickly your strong muscles can move you over to the bean bag. 4. Why don't you decide how to travel over to the bean bag with your big muscles. However I wanted to slap the therapist round the face and say " oh yes he's doing great and SO AM I" and storm out of the therapy room. Of course I didn't - because of course I must be the calm amygdala grrrrr LOL
However I do see therapeutic parenting as my job and I think all prospective adopters should understand there is a pretty good chance that they will need to do it and how relentless it can be for the most challenged 1/3. I also think that everyone in the most challenged 1/3 should have access to a listening partner - another parent who is or has been through the same degree of hell and can just listen when we feel rubbish about ourselves and need a boost and yes offer advice if we ask for it but not if we don't. This forum does that but I think it would be great to have a regular phone call as a lifeline in the week.
Healing for our kids comes through our connection with them and when we see even the smallest hint of that we must write it on our very own magic moments star. Last night AS2 eventually settled into bed at about 10.30 after a long "therapeutic" therefore exhausting battle. Just when we thought we could relax he made his final request - warm milk in a thermos cup. I said ok and trudged off but DH said I will do it. DH and AS2 are at loggerheads most of the time but DH handed the thermos over and with genuine warmth AS2 said "thanks dad you're the best." Normally he would snatch the thermos and say get out of my room you mother f***er or similar. Of course this is not a corner turned for ever it is just a moment but it's our hard work building connection that creates these moments!
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Post by sockthing on Nov 25, 2014 11:53:38 GMT
Sorry for not responding, although I have been reading.
Everyone's replies have been so thought provoking. I think iwhat screams out loud form this thread is the idea of tools in a toolbox ...some tools will be appropriate sometimes, but not always, and that every child is different. And yes....how can we possibly do this all the time and keep getting in right! I noticed today Sally Donovan talk about this in her new book.
It also screams out, how hard we all try, and how we are the best parents for our children even when we get it wrong!
Thank goodness for this place!
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