sunnysky
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Post by sunnysky on Sept 10, 2014 13:44:36 GMT
...but I guess I need to write this down and get your valuable advice anyway as you are all so understanding.
DS has, as you know, been something of a nightmare lately (well if I was honest as long as we've known him) but things are getting more difficult. He wants what his brother gets and in order to do this uses massive controlling techniques which have included refusing to allow me to leave him in the car meaning I end up having to get out of my own car and walk away. This is clearly not acceptable but he justifies it by saying it's the only way to get me to listen.
He wants me to help him with shopping and washing clothes but I feel reluctant to go to see him as he may well do this again. It is intimidating and inconvenient and really upsets me.
Trouble is I know his is struggling so much living on his own and if I don't go he won't be able to get his shopping or get his washing done. And at some level he does like to keep in touch with me albeit in this very toxic fashion.
It does look as if his brother is getting more than he does (he is forgetting how much he got when he lived at home and how he messed that up by behaving as he did, including hitting his dad) but his brother does not cause problems for us.
So how do I approach the subject of not seeing him until I can guarantee he won't behave inappropriately I guess that's my question.
Can feel the knots in my stomach just thinking about seeing him again.
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Post by sooz on Sept 10, 2014 17:46:12 GMT
Not got any experience with this (yet) but, could you change it around to suit you?
I mean, if you are able, and if you want to, tell him that one day per week or per fortnight, say a Wednesday, you will help him with shopping and washing for x amount of hours, this will be stopped if he becomes controlling or aggressive and then he's on his own for maybe a month and you'll try again?
If you don't want to, or are not able anymore to help then don't feel bad, you have to look after you xxx
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Post by peartree on Sept 10, 2014 21:13:14 GMT
Can I reframe this.
He hijacked your bl**dy car!
I think that *could* be considered unreasonable behaviour!!!!!!
I think that in the short term you've got to go out, for a walk with dh. and think just think as clearly as you possibly can about how a different set of boundaries could look in reality.
I'm sorry I've been blunt
I don't mean to cause any further upset, God knows you need more kindness than a forum can give but I just think the starkness of what I've put may help you see with greater clarity what you are really facing and what you've got to look after and face together.
Really I very firmly suggest that beyond the crisis management you've got to look at seeing an intermediary and talking through your thoughts in all this. Yes it will take commitment but I think it's a really good idea to try and move things forward
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Post by moo on Sept 11, 2014 4:56:14 GMT
Hugs sunnysky.... Stay strong xxx
xx. moo. Xx
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Post by corkwing on Sept 11, 2014 5:23:41 GMT
Hi, Sunnysky -
I worked this sort of issue through with a life coach, which was really, really helpful to me. It helped me to get beyond the immediate issues to my underlying thinking and motivations, which I managed to sort out. That pretty much fixed the depression that I was suffering from.
Might help you...
Love,
Corkwing
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Post by aprilshowers on Sept 11, 2014 10:07:18 GMT
Firstly ((((SS))))) I do know how difficult it is, and I also now know that I need to put me first, even though none of my three are living at home now they still can and do involve me in their stuff, yes some of it I want to be involved in but I also realise that a lot of it is to manipulate me and to try and drive a wedge between me and hubby and extended family, to just do what they always did. But I now tell, I now don't minimise their issues, I tell it to anyone who cares to listen...actually I tell anyone now whether they want to listen or not, in order to move on to accept that this is how life with OUR children is others need to know.
He cant abuse you in this way, and you cant let him, pull back the control, if he needs shopping and you want to help him with shopping then get it delivered, he cant manage washing then offer him money to take it to a service wash at launderette...at least then you are still supporting him, which I am sure makes you feel better, as for meeting then it is a quick coffee somewhere, ideally both of you use public transport so there is no repeat of the car incident.
Even if you gave him the life he see's his brother having, it wont be enough for a person that has to have all the control, a person that cant see beyond their actions and does not get consequences, it would just go back to how it was when he was younger and living with you.
We have had to be tough with our DS (19), its hard to know that he is most likely sleeping rough on occasions, but its his choice, over and over again we have tried and over and over again he just threw it in our faces and others that were also trying to help, and still he cant make the connection that his actions have caused the latest crisis.
As for my middle daughter she is using hubby, refuses to have anything to do with me, yet when she discovers that I have seen her younger sister or have had a day out with her is straight on the phone to hubby with a list of demands...I am one step ahead of her and normally have a bag of shopping ready to be delivered to her, still she refuses to aknowledge me in any way...but that is how it is and for me that is how it will stay. Recently a chap came to see us, he is part of the probation service working with middly, his role is for the victims and to try to do restorative work....I made it clear to him, we are supporting middly as much as we can and as much as she allows but there is no way that I will meet with her alone and she is not welcome to our home...this child tried to kill me and if I was to shuffle off this world anytime soon would be delighted and would move in to take my place...that has always been her aim...she quite likes me as a person but I had the audacity to try to be her mum and she would not allow that. He was somewhat surprised but completely understood.
My youngest well that is a different kettle of fish, some days are good others I am just used but that again is how it is.
Now luvvie you have to decide what you want, not what seems right or what your son wants...but what you want, you and your hubby have been through so very much, I remember reading some of your posts from years ago when my children were younger, I rarely responded as I really did not know what to say, but now I understand, now I know, WE are important people, WE deserve a life that we are comfortable with, go grab that life sunnysky, your son will cope all our children are geared to cope.
take care. xx |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 11:11:41 GMT
Great reply from April.
Can I just remind members to be a bit more supportive and a bit less daming.
Sunny sky came on here asking for "advice and understanding" , not to be shot down and sworn at.
If you are not being understanding and supportive, then maybe it's better not to reply at all.
jmk/Admin
Update 12.09.14
I have deleted the offending posts and all, references to them. The matter has been dealt with and the offending member has received a formal warning.
Please do not make anymore references to this on this thread or any other thread. The matter is closed and i am unlocking the thread so that we can continue to support Sunnysky in an appropriate manner which is why she posted in the first place.
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Post by peartree on Sept 11, 2014 14:07:32 GMT
I've picked up that he's in touch and remaining connected.
Is there something you can do feasibly that could allow you to focus on "the task" and just be in each others company?
Something really low demand like cinema?
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Post by peartree on Sept 11, 2014 14:10:03 GMT
I can see that both blossom and partridge are going to struggle a lot with personal hygiene, clean clothes etc
You can buy in support workers
Trouble is.
If they yp says to "go away" in no uncertain terms
That's what paid support workers absolutely do.
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Post by peartree on Sept 11, 2014 14:10:56 GMT
Could you boundary your time supporting him laundry wise and go in eg weekly?
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Post by mayan on Sept 11, 2014 15:51:44 GMT
Hi Sunny
sending gentle hugs - things sound so very hard and you sound so torn - it's a tough place to be right now and you sound so alone with all of this? Do you have a trusted friend who could be a chaperone or perhaps step in to support you a little - it may shift the dynamic of his focus being all on you?
I know as a mum you know his vulnerabilities like no one else and the pain of his situation and your own - I know that you want things to be different and they can and they will. You don't have to stop caring or being his mum - if he needs help there are ways of doing this but your physical and psychological safety is your first priority. I could say it's about protecting yourself and the needs of your dh and it is - but most of all it is actually about protecting the son you love so dearly and want to help move forwards. There comes a point where the risks of not drawing a line and enforcing it means that they overstep the mark without realising it as that is their norm - and the consequences may not lie in our hands anymore - as a mum that's the last thing we want for our children whatever their age but especially when they are culpable adults nevermind their level of emotional maturity or their issues.
Its 11 years since we moved our ds out and it has taken time and many steps back and forth and much manipulation on his part - it's a work in progress and we still boundary our interactions because he still needs that structure to some extent and it keeps us all safe, especially him, and in each other's lives in a positive way. In all probability I could see my ds in our home on my own or his sib could but I don't and I won't because there is always a cintilla of a risk and I don't want to put him in that situation in case one day it is an ask too much and so I hold the line. There is so much I would wish was different about the way things have to be and there are times to grieve about that especially for the impact on his sib but when I see him relaxed and congenial (knowing how much more effort he has to make to do this) I am thankful that I held to that boundary line and he has told me himself he knows it was the right thing to do for him. He may not have a perfect life and still has his issues of one sort or another but he has learned how to be within the family and if and when he struggles we are there to shore up the boundaries for him and help guide him to make better choices when he is able but not to inflict his less wise choices on the rest of us.
Entrenched behaviours and responses can change - our ds would fight every step to stop me holding the psychological power because of his scripts around his BM - he wanted to isolate and punish me and if not me his sister - we have changed that dynamic bit by bit step by step. He wanted to retain the status quo but I'm glad we didn't for his sake.
its hard when you love them so - I hope your counselling is helping you and that you are nurturing yourself.
much love and strength always.
keep posting sunny it's better out there than carried in our hearts - it's too heavy a load some days and you know we are all here to lift you up a little and gee you on in our different ways.
Mxx
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sunnysky
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Post by sunnysky on Sept 12, 2014 10:58:29 GMT
thank you to you all for your replies it is very helpful.
In my head I know I have to let him get on with it and learn he can't treat me like this but my heart tells me to help him as there is no-one else to help him (his dad won't have anything to do with him after he assaulted him and all support has been thrown away by ds).
If I was being totally honest there are times he scares me as he gets so angry and after what he did to his dad it's no wonder really is it? I do believe it is up to me to try to change the way I deal with him (I remember a post adoption social worker telling me many years ago "if you always do what you always did you will always get what you always got" - hope I got that right so I am I guess reinforcing his behaviours by not changing my reactions to them).
So how do I live with him not being able to wash his clothes (no launderette nearby) and not being able to go shopping (no supermarkets). He also needs help with job centre, appointments etc - How do I deal with not helping him with these? He texts me just expecting I will help him clean, wash etc without understanding his behaviour is not acceptable,. He had a job but gave it up and he was much better tempered when he had his job - but I didn't really expect it to be last if I'm being honest. I think it helped his mental health enormously.
I am hoping the mindfulness/cbt etc will help but only had one session so far. Just wondering how to explain to psychologist just what I expect from this help as it's so complicated.
I really want to change my thinking but struggling with this but so lovely to hear from people who understand and "get it". If it was a friend at work telling me what I'm telling you I would be horrified and tell them not to see him and take control of the situation so why can't I do that? xxxxx
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Post by moo on Sept 12, 2014 11:19:05 GMT
Love that quote sunnysky think I will have to follow its lead... Very thought provoking....
I get his expectation of you is huge.... Surely there is a way to change his expectancy... Would choices work for him?? Or I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine.... ( bit naive I know )
I get that he realises you are his only crutch & that without it he is lost... Just wish I could magic you up a reasoning tool to aid his thought process out of his anger rut ( default mode ) that way the always get & got pattern gets a subtle tweek iykwim.....
Hugs to you {{{{}}}} xxx
xx. moo. Xx
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Post by corkwing on Sept 12, 2014 11:23:18 GMT
"If it was a friend at work telling me what I'm telling you I would be horrified and tell them not to see him and take control of the situation so why can't I do that?"
Hi, Sunnysky -
My problem is with "boundaries". I believe that things are my responsibility when they're not. I try to keep people happy, even when it's their mistakes that have caused the pain. Like I'm supposed to be made redundant at the end of the year. They've asked me to stay on another month because their recruitment for my replacement hasn't gone through quick enough. Really, it's their fault and their responsibility. I have a business that I want to set up that I was planning on starting in earnest in January. Yet my immediate reaction is to say, "Yes". I've been really good and so far and have said, "No". (I may change my mind. But only if I want the extra month's pay and if I'm OK with my business not starting for another month.)
It helps me to see that I'm the one with the problem.
It has helped me to understand that it's not my responsibility that other people are upset or angry.
It has helped me to practice saying "No" to safe people: people who will accept my "No" and won't criticise me or emotionally blackmail me. That's helping me to get the confidence to say "No" to unsafe people - which includes some of my kids - who will try to make me feel guilty if I don't do what they want. To be honest, I think you might get more hurt if you just dive in and try to say "No" to your son without practicing first on safe people.
It's taken me quite a lot of time to get to where I am and I know I still have a fair way to go!
Books that have helped me have been "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend and "When I Say No I Feel Guilty" by Manuel Smith.
Love,
Corkwing
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Post by aprilshowers on Sept 12, 2014 12:29:30 GMT
At the end of the day he is your son, despite all that has happened and it very very hard to just stop being mum. some of the supermarkets will deliver to more remote places, as for the washing maybe that is something you two can do together at an agreed time...that is a time you agree, or look in local papers for washing/ironing services. Its all so hard, made even harder by our children an their lack of understanding/empathy/jealousy etc. There is no right or wrong answers, but your safety and well being are paramount, do not put yourself at risk.
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Post by peartree on Sept 12, 2014 15:49:00 GMT
I like corkwings reply,
I'm not very good at it, think that being a very empathic, kind warm caring person tends to mean that this sort of boundaried care is very alien. To have come so far in adoption you care, deeply, for the damaged scared little boy within.
Thing is, that great big adult is now in front of you!
And
Fwiw
I find, even when I've been able to be non emotional and sage in explaining if partridge lies so we are in danger or if blossom leaks our life to their birth family we will have no choice to step away- it's ok to be really sad, upset and angry that they and their "stuff" has completely invaded and taken over your life.
I've found trying to separate that
Dealing with my feelings as separately as I'm able and doing the logical business type things with them helps us keep safer.
It's very very hard
I'm no expert.
But this approach is holding at this time.
Perhaps "at this time" is good enough
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sunnysky
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Married Adopter
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Post by sunnysky on Sept 13, 2014 16:43:33 GMT
Thank you once again to everyone who has taken the time to reply. it is very kind of you and much appreciated.
I have managed to secure some support for the next time I see him so I will see how that goes. I have told him that if he "hijacks" my car again then I will have no choice but to stop the support. I just hope it goes ok - I will let you know.
It's really strange- I just can't bear to think of him struggling with hygiene, keeping flat clean etc and will put myself in difficult situations to help him. I know deep down that unless I stay strong he will continue to behave in this way.
I am determined to stay strong - now let's see if I can do it
xxx thank you for all your ideas and suggestions they are all much appreciated especially when I know you are all struggling with your own difficult situations it does mean a lot xxxx |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2014 8:54:09 GMT
It is a hard one Sunnysky but you have to put your own safety first and he cannot be allowed to be abusive or threatening towards you.
Taking a friend along might be a good idea as he is less likely to overstep the mark if there is a witness there.
Glad you are finding support here, that's what we are all about. Xx
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Post by sooz on Sept 14, 2014 14:26:13 GMT
I know your ds won't see it (big assumption on my part I guess) but you are trying to maintain contact in a way that is going to suit both of you, so that he can continue to get support.
The alternative if you don't or can't keep the current situation going is that he loses that support all together. It seems neither of you want that.
So so important that you put yourself first in all this, and I'm sending big hugs as I can only imagine how hard it is. Xxx
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Post by mayan on Sept 17, 2014 13:16:42 GMT
So glad you have someone to support you sunny that is good news. Hopefully you will have a chance to sit down with this person so that they can have a clear idea of your first visit together and how you will draw things to a close if your ds starts to ramp things up - I am sure he won't like you changing the dynamic and empowering yourself and not being isolated so may react in someway at some point - it will be important he doesn't goad this person and separate them from you. Keep it short sweet positive and airy - if you achieve a quick clean or quick shop job done and better than letting things spiral.
I was thinking more on the cleaning situation and how we dealt with it with our son - the first thing I had to address was my expectations about his idea of clean I just had to let go of the fact that he wanted to live a certain way - and it actually wasn't a reflection on me - it was his choice. The other thing was my role in doing the cleaning as it put me into a position of being subservient if he was not prepared to do anything - whilst we would provide some cleaning stuff - he would have to do the work on the target room. Fortunately my dh stepped into the breach on this and ds would grudgingly cooperate although sometimes dh simply took a broom and black sacks and made ds just shovel things into the sacks as it was pretty appalling at times - other times neat as a pin... As your dh isn't able to help you with this perhaps a compromise if things are difficult for you is just periodically paying for a male cleaner to do a blitz although it's really not a route to recommend as it lets your ds off the hook but if you hate the thought of your ds sitting in any kind of squalor perhaps it's worth the thought if it saves you from unpleasant and unsafe confrontations - I am not sure of the circumstances of where your ds is living but is there someone there who could chivvy him on this front? My ds was frankly awful in respect of the woman who ran his first sheltered accommodation and I had a real struggle with seeing him live the way he was choosing to do as he would use it as a way of abusing her and work his mother issues out hence my wariness of being his cleaner - he did improve eventually and he is always groomed and clean - I would lay money on the fact he shops for new things before he visits us - so some of the message has got in there and he is making his choices himself and achieving an acceptable solution without all the angst. It ain't perfect for sure and Ds and I have really had to adjust our expectations but it isn't the problem it was - though it makes me sad to know that he needed to live like that - very much a recreation of the conditions he had once lived in...
Just some thoughts sunny
Sending love and strength
Mxx
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sunnysky
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Post by sunnysky on Sept 23, 2014 8:58:03 GMT
Hello Mayan and thank you for this. The shopping went ok but I did not go in his flat. I don't want to put myself in a difficult position at this point. My son doesn't like living with mess but won't/can't get on and clean it without my help. Not sure if it's a won't or can't. Perhaps I just have to leave that worry as I have so many others to deal with at the moment.
Life is so hard isn't it with our children? Thankfully though I am starting to feel a little better in myself (tablets/therapy helping)but that's just until the next crisis and they seem to come thick and fast.
Thank you so much to everyone for your support it means such a lot xxx
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 10:14:18 GMT
Just thinking regarding the cleaning .... is there a time you could do it when he's not in, so that you keep, on top of it before it becomes a health hazard, but can do it when he is not present ? Just wondering if he would agree to this. And then do the shopping together but not go back to his flat, have a coffee and a chat in a cafe instead, that way you can have safe contact with him, but in a public place.
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Post by mayan on Oct 3, 2014 10:20:01 GMT
Hi sunny
Really pleased to hear you had some success with the shopping trip - keep your boundaries in place even if things continue to go well as he will test your new found resolve...
Good to hear that you are feeling better in yourself too - that's really good news!
As for the next crisis - it sounds like you are in a permanent state of alert which must be very exhausting for you - it is something I recognise too well from living with my children - yes they can certainly lurch from crisis to crisis at certain times in their lives but for some their survival instincts are just ramped up to be on alert all the time - my dd is still like this always listening out, watching and trying in her way to be ahead of the game and control if we let her - and this way of living can seep into our bones too - it's exhausting to live with or be around folk that function like this and whilst you are involved and caring for them it can sap your very being - all the things that make you you to the rest of the world and to yourself. It's so important to inoculate yourself with liberal doses of normal life even if at times you may feel that life is going on for everyone else but you.
A crisis isn't a crisis someone once said - it's an opportunity - perhaps the next crisis may be a new opportunity to change the dynamics a little more the way you want or just to say like with going into your sons flat - nope - that's for another day.
Thinking of you and sending much love and strength
Mxx
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