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Post by corkwing on Jun 11, 2014 12:21:36 GMT
Any thoughts about contact with Mackerel? He's currently in care in a residential unit less than 10 minutes walk away. Current arrangements are that he comes to us for an hour and a half each week. Sprat hates this, seems to hate him, is verbally abusive, gets really stressed, winds him up, gets wound up and it all ends in tears. Fairly Basslet seems ambivalent but sets boundaries (like he's not allowed in her room) but then breaks them the moment he starts a bit of manipulation.
Mackerel doesn't seem to see the point and has not turned up the last couple of times. He wants to be roaming the streets with his "friends". Our house is boring because he wants to do something new and exciting all the time. He won't sit down and watch TV, play a board game or anything like that.
We don't enjoy it due to the stress of the other kids.
Mackerel wants to pop in for 10 minutes whenever it suits him. To us, this suggests that it'll be when he wants a lift home or has been out with his mates, got hungry and wants us to feed him. And it puts him in complete control of it, which we don't feel is fair and reasonable. He's said that he'd ring first to check it's convenient, but we don't think he'd cope with "no" very well.
I'm confused as to what contact is supposed to achieve. It was originally stated that it was contact with his birth siblings, but neither of them seem bovvered. The only contact he really seems to crave at all is with Kermit. Social worker said that contact was to give him a sense of belonging within the family, but I'm not sure exactly what that looks like. We do, of course, want to maintain contact, but just don't know how to make it work.
To anyone who's waded through to the end, any suggestions?
The only one I can think of is that Kermit and/or I meet him in McDonalds and buy him a meal once a week/fortnight. Though if he decides he doesn't like McDonalds we could be a bit stuck.
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Post by jollymummy on Jun 11, 2014 13:25:20 GMT
Could you arrange that the once a week he comes and visits is at a meal time? Make it a "special" meal time in some way - perhaps a take away meal (if you were happy to go to McDs) or one that is cooked by everyone together - each child making a course, say. That way, at least there is some focus for the time he is there. Each child will be able to get something out of it (at least a "treat" takeaway or selecting and cooking a course). And you get the practicality of feeding him done.
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Post by pluto on Jun 11, 2014 13:56:28 GMT
If I was in your shoes I would stop home visits altogether, I would visit him in his residential placement ones a week. Or you could rotate with your wife. I would not bring him anywhere, just bring some cake or so to share. Probably visit in the evening during the week when he is most likely to be there.
Than you have the option to bring a sibling if they want to. If he refuses to engage than stop for a while. Difficult situation but do not let his controle issues controle the rest of the family, I would say.
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Post by serrakunda on Jun 11, 2014 14:22:15 GMT
I have a friend with a 16 year old in a residenitial unit not too far from home, although not adopted they have many similar issues. They rarely take him to home, as he is likely to refuse to go back to the unit. They usually take him to a coffee shop or McDs, or go to the unit and have pizzas there. Occasionally they will take him to a football match or similar. Seems to work best when there is some specific activity rather than just hanging out together at home
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Post by peartree on Jun 11, 2014 16:21:44 GMT
I think that he can come to your house, but then you go out. You don't stay put at home and you go for a walk & picnic. My son partridge and blossom have a trauma bond and so a 'free time at home' is a non starter So once a month they go to the cinema, Visit Tesco on the way for sweets/ junk food And then go to the cinema. They do sit opposite ends of the row. Because they want to watch the film and occasionally nod at one another....! When blossom moved initially, we would pick her up, do an activity with her (bowling/ visit a place) then go to same McDonald's on the way home and have the same food. We were utterly and completely exhausted by this but it was the only way she could cope We did this once a month. Inbetween we rang up and skyped. You might meet for a milkshake as he's so close.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 16:23:03 GMT
Have to agree with the others I'm afraid. I think you are better meeting on neutral ground like McD's or similar. I think it is too hard having him visit back at home as he probably goes into default and your other kids will resent him intruding into their private areas/rooms. Also if you meet him elsewhere the siblings have the choice of going or not depending on how they are feeling, but him coming round yours removes that choice IYSWIM and they have to tolerate him being there even if they don't want him to.
I am about to start contact with my EDD next week as she has finally requested it after 8 months. We will be meeting at a Children's Centre after school that has a teen room where we can do activities or chill in a private room with a support worker in attendance (at my request). SS have organised this for us, maybe yours have similar venues? YDD wants to come along with me, but at the moment the plan is just for myself and EDD to meet for a while to see how it goes and then maybe YDD could join us later if it goes according to plan in a few weeks.
It is a tricky one, trying to balance all their individual needs. Does Mackerel see his siblings seperately, or is this contact just between yourself and Kermit? Is there a separate plan for the siblings?
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Post by mayan on Jun 11, 2014 17:02:27 GMT
Hi Corkwing
I know our ds was a lot older when he left us but we steered clear of home visits for quite a while as we thought given all that had gone on it was really hard for him to come in from the cold so as to speak to a family unit that he was now separate from and we also wanted to keep every interaction as positive and safe as possible.
We met in public places just dh and myself and ds - for a coffee or some such or went to the pictures later on perhaps a fast food meal would be more M's thing. After a while we arranged slightly longer visits out for the day but always gave ourselves a way of bringing things happily to and end if we felt he was getting stressed by it all - before things deteriorated that is.
We have then slowly moved to visiting home - that was really hard the first time as we had to manage our dd's feelings as she was quite anxious and they fell back into competition mode (so a lot of managing required). We varied home and external meets to keep the pressure of expectations down. Would M enjoy some high energy things like karting or hi ropes or would that just make him hyper - would he do a half day sailing/ canoeing lesson or something so there would be another focus other than yourselves?
We then moved to an overnight over an Xmas which went well generally but managing it was exhausting as it just wasn't normal. We have done a number of overnights and it is easier but no visit is without some level of edginess on all our parts I guess. That's 11 years worth of trying!
Although he is an adult now we still boundary visits as frankly even though we don't have any real problems it is for our protection as he can hit low spots from time to time and one just never knows what the fallout will be. He has played games and tried to control visits saying he would come and then not or dropped out of contact for ages - a whole year at one stage - I think he turned up unexpectedly with a girl once and we just had to politely say we had another appointment so he got the message...
It isn't easy and he certainly has been keener to try and see me rather than dh so have always made sure it is the both of us or nothing if he is coming here.
We have had to do an awful lot of work with our dd in particular to ensure she has learnt not to be provoked or generally wound up because he liked to try and unsettle her as she was here with us. The old magnetic pull of their trauma bond required some very delicate manoeuvring on my part at times.
It's a compromise and sometimes I wonder if it is all worth the effort as it is emotionally draining still - but it's the best we can do to still be a safe place for him notwithstanding he is now living at his bm's and our dd can manage things much better and does feel the better for seeing he is still in one piece as do dh and I.
Even when it goes really well it's hard as there is a constant reminder of our painful separation for us all but we march on trying to keep every interaction a positive re wiring - we have come through some difficult times and even though he lives with his bmum and some sibs - he still considers this his home so I guess we must be doing something a bit right but it's what works for our situation.
Mxx
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Post by larsti on Jun 11, 2014 17:08:56 GMT
Hugs to you and Kermit.
I like your idea of meeting in McDonalds
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Post by mooster on Jun 11, 2014 19:40:47 GMT
It is interesting how different we all are. A few months after AD was in fostercare she asked to see half sibling. SS pushed for it as it was deemed in her interest, AS was pretty ambivalent towards it all, just needed to know she was ok. We started with supervised (from a neighbouring table) coffee shop meets but this became tricky as they both got bored in a fairly false situation – what 14 and 16 year old siblings sit chatting for long? It ended up with me joining in to keep things going while we waited for FC to return.
She then requested unsupervised time with him, we weren't happy with this but tried it in the local library and within minutes she was trying to get him out the door. We then put our foot down and said if she wanted to see him it had to be at home, AS was happy with this. She wasn’t happy but at the time this put us in control and she had the choice come or don’t, at least we weren’t sitting around waiting and wondering if she’d turn up. She did always turn up although timings could be altered but being at home it didn’t really matter and from there we got into a routine of weekly Sunday visits. First visits were tricky for her and us as it brought back all sorts of memories but we persevered and to be fair so did she. They lasted about 90 minutes – it felt like a whole day to her – when leaving she would say “thank you for a lovely day” whereas to us it was over with in a blink. When AS had seen enough of her he would disappear into his bedroom and she could choose to chat to us or go.
As we have gone on food seems to be key as it provides a distraction and a reason to be sitting down together – for a long while it felt like having a rather distant relative turning up every week and trying to make polite conversation; slightly tricky when much of what was talked about was fairly fantastical. I did try and be doing stuff as she used to and still does plonk herself down in the kitchen and expect to be entertained – I have cleaned bits in the kitchen that I haven’t seen for years! We did feel that if we always took her out to do stuff it didn't really represent what we were about as a family though we have done walks and swimming (to get her clean and do some exercise!)so we tried to mix and match and sometimes stay in and sometimes go out.
We have moved on to meals here, meals out, family visits, birthday bbqs and then Sunday afternoons and DVD evenings, then what felt like respite cover for fostercarers while they went on holiday (!!!) – now she is staying two nights a week which we feel in control of, if she starts to kick off and she has then we have worked really hard to manage it – a few hiccups but we are still trying. She also pops in once a week when not at college to spend some time with just me which has been really positive - have just stayed at home or used her to carry the shopping at Tesco!
AS finds it really hard on occasions and we do question whether we are doing the right thing for him but given that by her actions, if not always words, AD repeatedly asks us to be there for her we are hanging in there and trying to make home somewhere she can rely on while she grows up. It is really tough though and we can often feel the house sigh in relief when she goes, how sad is that!
Eighteen months on they do sometimes meet up together in town, it always makes me nervous but AS says he is keeping an eye on her! He also knows to walk away should something start that he is not happy with, we just have to trust that he can. We also leave them together at home, something we stopped doing when she was living here full time. It has taken a long time and lots of little steps forwards and backwards but there has been progress.
Good luck Corkwing, I hope you find a solution that works for your shoal.
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Post by damson on Jun 11, 2014 21:20:35 GMT
I sympathise. We're in a similar place at present. The bungee cable of the trauma bond pulls them together, then they are too close, and it all starts up again. Yes, home is a place that supplies food/ things/an audience and some parental affection.
We're meeting away from home, and it is a strain. As others have said, it all feels very unfamilylike.
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Post by jollymummy on Jun 11, 2014 21:36:37 GMT
Our daughter lives 2 1/2 hours away from us so we cannot have visits at home. It makes "contact" artificial. We spend a fortune on entertaining her and her brother. They argue a lot (she is not very tolerant of his annoying little brother routine) so we find an activity works best. But, it all costs money and, I suspect, a lot of the attraction of getting together is the meal out/ ice skating/ bowling that we do. Fortunately, we can afford it but I resent having to do it. I take the point others have made about some of the problems of being at home - but if it is manageable, then it must feel more natural.
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Post by peartree on Jun 12, 2014 6:59:02 GMT
We are/ you are supposed to get mileage for 'contact' (I thoroughly object to that term btw!) And should get their ticket paid if you go somewhere It's hard to actually claim and I felt guilty claiming but it's an unnatural level of expensive activities and you should def try
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Post by corkwing on Jun 12, 2014 7:10:48 GMT
Thanks for all the replies! There's a lot for us to throw into the mix.
Questions...
Jollymummy - Yes, he does come at meal times. The initial idea was that it kind of filled some time and brought us together as a family. But sometimes he refuses to eat with us, or wants to have his food cooked early so he can disappear again and it gets very stressful.
jmk - The contact is with "the family". It's unspecified and not very clear as to who it's supposed to be benefiting and in what way. Initially we think we were told that it was supposed to maintain his contact with his birth siblings, but that seems to be the least successful part of it.
Mayan69 - Yes, he does like high energy stuff, but only sometimes and he rarely does things twice. Doing it again is "boring". And he doesn't get the concept of "doing this thing again would probably be less boring that sitting around at home being bored of that. One of the problems is that we feel that we've done practically everything in the vicinity! We haven't done karting, but at ÂŁ90 for half an hour at the nearest track (for all three), it's stretching our budget!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2014 7:17:50 GMT
Mc'D's it is then for whoever turns up. At least that is flexible and affordable? So hard this contact thing, so un-natural in many ways, but at least it keeps a thread of a link going as without that we have nothing. I suppose it's a bit like a divorce. Mc'D's always seems to be full of divorced dads and their kids.
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Post by shadow on Jun 13, 2014 13:22:55 GMT
I am struggling with what to do with shadette - she is trying to use me instead of the support workers to do her shopping with her - I don't want to bring her home as its very false and there is always the worry I cant get her to leave again - she just manages the very basics - can walk with someone to the bank (round the corner), to the corner shop, to her GP - says going to the pictures or anywhere would be too scary
the idea is I don't get involved in any of her care , but we have nice contact- but I just don't know what we can do
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Post by pingu on Jun 14, 2014 0:03:21 GMT
Could you take her for a meal in somewherE of her choice, or maybe a Weatherspoons type place that does meals. But at a quiet time of day. Or Costa seems popular wirh my 16 yr old and friends if you just want a cuppa and/or a snack and there are nice cumfy chairs! Or a similar but quieter cafe. Our local bookshop has chairs and coffee, and the local library is quiet and you are allowed to talk there nowadays and they often have easy chairs. take a walk round town at quiet times of day and see what is open.
Museums and art galleries are often quiet midweek, park or walk in the country , or along a canal if weather passible. Any nearby Castles or historical sights, that are not too busy?
Does she like to swim - i used to use pool in mornings when few around, and nice quiet canteen there with view of pool. Ours also has a gym attached and you can pay for one session. if you live near coast a boat trip but maybe too scary. and i don't know what she is interested in, if anything, i know teenagers can be difficult to please.
None of my suggestions may be acceptable, but i offer them just in case !
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Post by shadow on Jun 14, 2014 9:30:33 GMT
we went for a drive yesterday -to the seaside town where we used to go on holiday - she wouldn't get out the car- but we talked a lot - had a laugh at memories, sang the theme tune for the "worst witch" which used to be her favourite tv programme and books, she did pop in the local co op - I could see how anxious she was - the trouble is she wears very scanty clothing and her arms are covered in cuts so people do stare which she feels is hostile
she wont eat in front of people - I suppose we just plod on and hope things get easier for her
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 8:05:48 GMT
Awh Shadow at least it was a start and she went with you, baby steps are needed I think and at least you were able to share some happy memories, it all helps. Hugs xx
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Post by mayan on Jun 16, 2014 13:04:24 GMT
Hugs Shadow - so bittersweet for you to hear her laugh and yet struggle so. Really good however that you had that positive interaction though and agree with Jmk - it all matters however small the positive interaction. Something as ordinary as sharing a table, chatting and having a coffee together has a whole new level of significance for many of us - it is painful still to think back to those tentative days with our ds - now we have focussed on accentuating the positives of whatever contact we can manage or he initiates. At the same time we have to look after ourselves and limit the fallout for dd (the latest visit despite all the positives - has sadly unsettled her significantly). There are limits to what can be achieved when juggling so many mismatched needs and wants so finding a positive or positives can be the only way to keep going.
Hugs to everyone finding their own way with similar situations.
Mxx
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Post by shadow on Jun 16, 2014 14:56:07 GMT
don't worry anyone , that I am not doing what the profs want for shadette - I am working along with the staff - as now the new SW is keen to have me involved and informed - so its easier now I know what's going on - the system is now seeing what I tried to tell them for years - and there are wonderful people involved now
I am trying to keen some sort of role as mum - and the profs agree that's in her best interests - despite her real mum telling her to have nothing to do with the "f ing b*tch" of a carer (me)
I think contact will be baby steps forward - and a couple of hours chatting whether its in the car or wherever is wonderful - maybe one day she will manage a café - next time I hope we can maybe get out the car and buy an ice cream or something
but I discuss everything with profs first before doing anything
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Post by milly on Jun 16, 2014 22:08:36 GMT
Great to hear they are working with you, Shadow.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2014 13:26:15 GMT
Yes do keep us updated Corkwing and let us know how it goes, since a lot of us are in the same situation. Hugs xx
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Post by serrakunda on Jun 17, 2014 16:05:47 GMT
Shadow, could Shadette tolerate something like a manicure or make up lesson, just thinking that spas are usually quiet places, with not too many people around, it would be a nice mum and daughter girlie thing to do
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Post by doubletrouble on Jun 18, 2014 23:21:18 GMT
Hi Shadow, How did Shadette get on with wee dug? would she like it if you brought him along maybe just to see him in the car, then in the future maybe took him for a wee walk on a quite beach in the future or that local castle near you.
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Post by corkwing on Jun 23, 2014 13:04:08 GMT
We had the meeting. They were positive about us meeting him somewhere neutral, and actually seemed to understand a lot. So we've gone for that and also reduced it to fortnightly.
They didn't seem to understand was that it may not actually be beneficial to have contact with his siblings. Yes, there's this wonderful, romantic notion of "family", but in our case, it doesn't work like that. "lots of kids that age don't like their siblings" and that sort of stuff. Tried to point out that, in Sprat's case, it's not "don't like": it's actual hate. They wanted us to agree to once a month contact to "do an activity" with Mackerel and his siblings. We pointed out that we've done MANY activities with them and the problems, but they didn't seem to be able to comprehend that. So we have agreed to that, on the grounds that we can see how it goes and review it. Will have to try to keep a log...
Thanks for the support,
Corkwing
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Post by larsti on Jun 23, 2014 13:36:12 GMT
sounds like progress. If they are so keen on contact between the children, could they not arrange (and pay for) activities supervised by a SW without you present? Then they might see that it doesn't work...or if it goes okay, all well and good (but I suppose then you and Kermit would get the fallout afterwards )
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Post by pluto on Jun 23, 2014 13:55:24 GMT
In this case do not go to the cinema, out for meals etc. A picknick and a long walk at the beach or in a forest. Anything where there is plenty of opportunity to argue, be horrible, not get on. Do not forget to put your phone on 'record' when everything goes pear shaped, or just video it. Than write your report, that is what I would do.
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Post by esty (archive) on Jun 23, 2014 14:21:28 GMT
Shadow - could you try going to a specialist horse riding centre and just spending time with a horse? It has been know to be very therapeutic. You could try Riding for the Disabled (her emotional needs should count). Sorry Corkwing though an outdoor activity could work for you too? Rock climbing/abseiling where he has to think about what he's doing rather than what he can say or do to get a response?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 14:27:12 GMT
Glad to see they are listening to you and Kermit Corkwing.
Don't forget you two are the experts in your own children and you know what's best for them not SS.
You have all your children's best interests at heart and you know what is right for them NOT SS.
Fortnightly sounds good to me and probably better and more meaningful than a weekly trek to McD's especially if Mackerel doesn't really want it. The sibs can decide if and when they want to join you and you will know when the time is right for any family get togethers.
Sometimes birthdays are a good time sometimes not, but just take it slowly and do the fortnightly meetings with no expectations on either side and see how it goes.
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Post by corkwing on Jun 23, 2014 14:57:33 GMT
Larsti - One of the suggestions was that we take them swimming to a big complex about 40 minutes away. We did point out that it them got very difficult if one of them decided they'd had enough after 10 minutes. They did agree that someone from the care home would bring Mackerel and be around to take him home if that happened. Had we thought of your suggestion beforehand, that would have been an interesting one to throw into the pot!
Pluto - having discussed the sorts of activities that could work (our view: practically nothing) I would find it hard to deliberately sabotage the well-meaning efforts of the social workers and care home. We're going to give it a try. You never know: we may be pleasantly surprised!
Esty - Again, we discussed the fact that the point was to actually have quality time together, which meant interaction between them.
Jmk - we did also discuss birthdays. Neither Mackerel nor Sprat cope with them very well, and they were very understanding that we didn't want to have contact on those days.
Corkwing
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