Sorry for my misunderstanding of the effects of ADHD drugs on none ADHD people. I had meant to say spaced out not zombie like. I am only going on what I have seen with a local child who was medicated but didn't react at all like others do. She became very reclusive and with drawn and her mum said she couldn't concentrate on anything. She changed from the bubbly, chatty girl who always talked to you to one who couldn't look you in the eye, walked around with her head down, and refused to get out of bed most days. Yes Little miss, girls do present quite differently to boys usually. Our DD is as described by you and our DS is like Dash.
Ha brilliant Mily - I have often been tempted myself through curiosity.
There is also the issue of getting the right dose and type of meds right, the wrong one can make a child more hyper or like a zombie or cause even cause aggression.
A good Cons will work with you on this. We have been given the option of switching to the nhs ADHD service soon, but tbh the support we get privately is fab & I am happy to pay to have someone on the end of the phone when we need to change DSs dose.
Post by lilyofthevalley on Jun 4, 2014 9:09:59 GMT
Unfortunately it is not as simple as try the meds and, if they work, then hey presto the individual can be diagnosed with ADHD. The medication often has to be finetuned for the individual. This was certainly the case with Ritalin. The advised method with dosage was to start with the lowest dose, see the effect, and gradually increase the dosage until an optimum dose was reached. Too little or too much would result in no effect or in side effects. Often the prescribers would get the dosage wrong and it would have to be modified. Again over time the dosage might need to be modified. Unusually the dose was not dependent on the age or weight of the child. My son's dosage was initially too high and he was left spaced out. It had to be lowered. However he still needed a higher dose than my daughter who, although younger, was physically bigger than him and her symptoms were worse.
While I was investigating ADHD on behalf of my children, reading books, attending conferences etc., I came to the startling realisation that I myself fitted the criteria for ADD. This was a bit of a shock but it explained quite a lot. I was seeing a very nice psychiatrist at the time as I was suffering from Depression and PTSD (after being stalked for years by a former member of staff at a children's home who had abused young people and who then wanted revenge for his dismissal and court appearance as a result of my investigation -at that time there was no legal protection against stalking). I discussed my findings with the psychiatrist who decided to try me on Ritalin. I used to get funny looks from the pharmacist when I would pick up the family Ritalin prescriptions for me and the two children! The Ritalin had an extraordinary effect on me. I felt very much better and more focussed. I took it for quite a while but then it stopped working for me so I stopped it. I now realise that ADHD runs in my family. I am certain that my 92 year old mother has suffered from ADHD all her life. I also have a nephew who I believe would fit an ADHD diagnosis.
With regard to Bruce Perry, I would not go to listen to someone who denies the existence of ADHD. It just makes me angry. Sadly the UK is decades behind countries such as the US and Australia in the diagnosis and treatment of ADHD, even though it was a British specialist who first diagnosed the condition over 100 years ago. So it is not some newfangled condition. Denying the existence of ADHD is like denying the existence of Depression.
Adopted my two children 22 years ago, when they were aged 6 & 7. We had many problems. They were eventually diagnosed with ADHD & FAE. DD with Dyslexia, Dyspraxia and PTSD. DD was very ill with ME for 3 years. Now in their late 20's, have settled down a lot. DD works. DS has a young child.
Same here, when I began researching ADHD for DS I realised that ADD was an issue for both me & my BS. We are both dyslexic but both our issues with I attentiveness and appalling memory go way more than typical dyslexia. I am also rather impulsive
I wouldn't bother with meds/diagnosis now, but I do think they would've helped me & BS during school years. It's a bit of a theme really, my own dad has an extraordinary high IQ but failed miserably at school. We come from a family of high achievers where a few of us have been the 'black sheep' - myself & my BS included.
I also realised that my grandad was an ASpie - 100% certain of it. Only in his generation it was ok for a man to be obsessive over steam trains and maps he was also a loner & hated being around anyone - a rather eccentric fellow to say the least.
I find it fascinating how much of this is within our society in general, and of course, if you live contentedly there is nothing you need to do (my Gdad would never have benefited from a diagnosis). I can see mild ASD traits in many of my family plus ADD in myself & BS. It took adopting a child with ASD & ADHD to recognise it.
Difference makes the world a better place. I have always told my kids it's good to be an individual - which has come back to haunt me as my BS has a passion for vintage tattoos & whenever I tell him how much I dislike them, he tells me he was brought up to be 'himself'.
The stalking sounds very scary though! Good for you for being the whistle blower!
It is funny that girls with ADHD are often different to boys with it. My dd is very like the typical description that applies often to boys although I wouldn't say she is as hyperactive - in fact quite the opposite now - but even when younger she was more fidgety and restless than hyper. However she did benefit massively from physical activity - we were always going to the park, swimming, cycling etc. Whereas dd2 has never been so keen on that kind of thing.
I do think there is more going on with dd1. I have come back to seeing a lot of attachment stuff plus aspects of ASD and PDA. She also borders on dyslexia ( but did not meet the criteria when screened) and dyspraxia (awaiting referral). Then there's the emotional, hormonal teen stuff too....
We have found CAMHS won't up her meds anymore but just stick to government guidelines so have no idea if she is on the optimal dose. We tried to go private but Dr wouldn't accept her as she already has treatment. But TBH educationally she is probably achieving near to her potential and it's the social side that causes most issues now. Some signs of improvement though.
I do hope I have not misrepresented Bruce Perry (or rather that he has not been misrepresented by the press...which is highly likely!) I will do a bit of further investigation, but that was what I understood him to have said.
I know an organisation I get emails from was up in arms about what he had said, which bring s me to the next point. I nearly posted this yesterday apropos of not being good at planning or sticking to a plan. I have concluded that I too have ADD.
I remember having hearing tests at school every year, because as a very small child the teacher had noticed I wasn't paying attention and so arranged a hearing test....no problem with hearing but still had a test every year!
Then at uni I did my first year twice (long story) basically changed my course on a whim and went back to first year. I remember being in a phone box talking to the Scottish Education Dept, telling then I had changed course and since an honours degree takes 4 years in Scotland (don't know if that is still the case) and I was in Aberystwyth, I thought there was no problem with them funding me for an extra year! They approved it too Those were the days.....a full grant. It would have been 1980!
Then on form F our SW said I was 'scatty' which I didn't mind, it is true.
I have always been chronically late and disorganised which is not good for the self esteem but strangely I have been a bit better since I self diagnosed myself and did the online CBT for depression. I have stopped beating myself up so much and no longer think I am a failure, just that I struggle in some areas. I am sure my older sister had ADHD. Always in trouble at school. She is 6 year older so I didn't know too much, but she was always in trouble full stop. .Went to live with granny for a while as a teenager as my Mum couldn't cope with her.
There's a good book called 'You mean I'm not lazy stupid or crazy' and that about sums it up!
When our son was younger and we were investigating Asperger Syndrome we were puzzled because by definition if you have the traits you have it, because that's the definition of a syndrome. Same with Polycystic Ovary Syndrome. Apparently you don't have to have polycystic ovaries, by definition you have it if you have the symptoms. Well that's how I understand it.
good question, this is currently the argument I am having. School and education officer have lept on the words 'autistic traits' , ignoring the reports which I have which clearly state ASD. GP, who has ASD son, thinks this is a load of cobblers as if you have traits you are on the spectrum, and Simba certainly has enough of them, so I am ending up having to get reassessments because they dont believe me
Mum to the 'hansom' Simba, age 19 and 40 now retired teddy bears and FC to Special K, age 12
I once saw a sticker that said 'being a failure is not as easy as it looks' which summed it up for me. Not that I am saying either is a failure, God forbid. But you mentioned under achievers Wibbley and I totally identify with that.
Ha ha..it's OK Larsti. I have always been a HUGE under-achiever
I apparently have an IQ of 127 yet walked away from school with 1 C and all the rest below. However, I do think IQ levels are VERY over-rated. My mum has a string of qualifications, had a very high powered job and not a dot of common-sense.
My mum was forever called up the school due to my 'laziness' and lack of attainment. Apparently I was clearly lazy as I was eloquent and could talk the talk, but kept getting all my work wrong, took ages to read etc. Strangely enough my BS was exactly the same . It has actually been a real eye-opener seeing how easily DD picks things up, how easily and naturally she learns. DS certainly is more akin to me and BS.
We home educate both the youngest and after almost 2 years of trying to do a more formal approach, we have decided to bite the bullet and go autonomous. That may not mean much to most of you, but Larsti will know what I mean and what a leap of faith that is! Arguments about boring work will now be one less of a battle in this house.
In terms of the ASD diagnosis, to make matters even more confusing, I was told by DSs Consultant that Autism/Autistic is NOT a diagnosis, but a description of a range of behaviours. It is an 'umbrella term' she said. Perhaps this is also the case for ADHD?
All those professionals who worked hard to get the diagnostic criteria for ADHD right in the DSM IV and Nice Guidelines must be deluded I take it if these people, who I am guessing have never lived with a child with ADHD, are right. I do agree, there will be kids with ADHD symptoms that do not have ADHD and things like checking sight, food intolerances, sensory issues should be done first. But, and big BUT - they usually aren't. However, if medication works, then what's the harm? If you have a child who is showing ADHD symptoms due to an attachment problem, and the medication allows the child enough 'space' to modify reactions and the parent to get close enough for some nurturing - what's the problem? The Cons for my DS was well aware of his mega sensory issues and that these were impacting on his behaviour, he drew a cluster of interlocking circles with a ? in the middle (which turned out to be ASD), in those circles are ADHD, Sensory, attachment etc etc...all that make 'him'. He said that the medication won't stop the sensory stuff, but he hoped it would give DS what he called a 'thought bubble'. A moment in time before his split second reaction. It did just as he said. My DS can still be incredibly difficult, he doesn't like being around others and that's that, BUT we have a time, sometimes half an hour, sometimes significantly less, but we have 'time' to get him settled, re-assure or just leave if that's what is needed. Before we had major split second kicking off. From zero to a 1000%. Life is much better with the medication that's for sure.
"Part of what happens is if you have an anxious, overwhelmed parent, that is contagious. When a child is struggling, the adults around them are easily disregulated too. This negative feedback process between the frustrated teacher or parent and disregulated child can escalate out of control.'
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? We know with children of trauma, they can be anxious and overwhelmed....that is contagious and then we know it is a vicious circle.
and then he says...
"You can teach the adults how to regulate themselves, how to have realistic expectations of the children.....'
Now that's what we have been discussing in this excellent thread ( ) how do we have realistic expectations??? And self care has come up, eg Mayan's post How do we stay sane???
I have noticed how I change and how I feel when ds isn't around, ie at school. During the day I feel I have more energy and better able to manage my life. As soon as I collect ds from school I suddenly feel weary. I have a knot in my stomach when he is around. It takes an awful lot of effort on my part to remain cheery and positive.
And yet I love being with snooz, I quite often miss him when he's at school and look forward to seeing him.
I guess I love him but find it hard going?
Snooz is very sensitive to others moods, he seems to pick up on anxiety or stress but I find it so hard to relax in his company. I think it's the uncertainty of how it's going to be that day, what is likely to set him off next. I'm forever watchful, I can switch off from that to a great extent when he's in school, although my phone is always nearby!
I do need to readjust my expectations, both of him and myself. In life I've always needed an even keel, I can manage hard times and deal with stressful situations but I've never dealt well with uncertainties. I am hoping a diagnosis may help me get to grips with stuff.
Awful thing to admit really. Snooz is fabulous, truly wonderful, I love his quirks but never knowing from one minute to the next what he's likely to do I find so so hard.
Mum to Snooz, a quirky but fab 17 year old with ASD and Tourettes.
I agree, DSs unpredictability when out & about is wearing & I am on red-alert the entire time. But I have to be, he needs the supervision of an 18mths old & can get himself into all sorts of mischief in a split second. Being that hypervigalant is exhausting,
But I do have 2 other kids who aren't like this at all, 1 other AC & a BS. So whilst I agree that DS feeds me his anxiety & then feeds off mine, there is a starting point that is not with me too.
When we are home, just us 3 or 4 with no distractions, no visitors, no plans to go into the outside world, then DS copes best. It's the world at large that causes him problems
For me biggest issue about self care is time. I'm so glad he can now manage Cub and woodcraft folk camps. To have whole days and nights uninterrupted, not to have to rush round to get back in time, not to have to listen to Peppa flipping pig, not to have to deal with the constant demands. He has a camp in three weeks, Friday to Sunday evening, I can't wait ! Just a bit of space, lie in, I'll have so much more energy and patience with him, at least for a week
I'll admit it too, I love Simba to bits, he is an amazing little boy, he has come through so much and we have such a good time together, but unpredictability is so hard
Mum to the 'hansom' Simba, age 19 and 40 now retired teddy bears and FC to Special K, age 12
I love it when I have just one at a time. Doesn't happen very often but it's good when they can just be rather than feeling that they have to compete for my attention. Which dd, particularly, does all the time. She can be incredibly wearing - on Saturday big boy had 3 friends sleeping over for his birthday. Middly stayed here but dd had a sleepover at my mothers. First time since she was a baby. Even having 4 boys in the house was less exhausting than having one daughter!!
I used to feel quite guilty because I don't work. No more. Last year I got two of them diagnosed. Gave evidence to the Welsh Govt on adoption. This year I've got middly statemented, into a new, full, ASD unit and started transitioning him. I've spoken to Bristol uni about adoption. I'm meeting a researcher next month to talk about adoption and contact. I've arranged to meet my MP (welsh equivalent) about the lack of PPP in Wales.
This is my job so when I decide to knock off and have a coffee before the kids come home I no longer feel guilty.
Besides, I need the space to breathe.
Mum to three easy to place babies! DS, Bigly (13), DS, Middly (10) and DD, Littly (8) with a range of diagnoses!
Post by littlemisscheerful on Jun 4, 2014 21:26:18 GMT
Re meds - I met a pyschotherapist last year who thought they could be really useful where aggression was an issue, - regardless of ADHD or not. Re self care, I agree that a lot of it comes down to time. But, I can fritter away loads of time and not do anything productive which always makes me feel worse. Dog walking twice a day is very important for me, (though I'm having to take kids to school at the mo, so they're currently being a bit short walked. I am a bit alternative, so I use homeopathy, acupuncture, yoga (when I have the impetus to leave the house).
I do work quite hard at trying to keep grounded - I aspire to them catching my zen like energy (if only!!) rather than me pick up their stuff. I'm often ok with just 1 of them, but their general spikeyness and bickering and off the scale jealousy of each other really hits me because it's very hard to interrupt the flow. This is my current challenge. I did some NLP studying years ago - there was some interesting stuff about 'matching', - eg if you can match someone's breathing rate, and get attunded to them, if you then slow your breathing down, theirs should follow. I've had more success with this with people other than my kids, but food for thought perhaps.
I've been fascinated reading this thread. Larsti, I've always been struck by your threads by what a giving, warm and creative parent you are. Don't doubt yourself! Dash sounds very familiar to me! I stopped taking Monkey Boy to the supermarket about 18 months ago. The internet has been my friend ever since! I don't take him into any town or village unless I absolutely absolutely have to (we live up a tiny single track lane, surrounded by countryside) as he freaks out - and it comes out as hyperactivity, hypervigilance and defiance - oh, and hitting, of course! I have started taking MB to an osteopath (I hadn't heard of Bowens before but it sounds quite similar to MBs treatments) and it does seem to be making a difference (for instance, the nightmares are dramatically reduced and he sleeps through the night much more often) but in order to get him to sit still in the waiting room, I have to take a collection of toys and keep up a stream of distracting chat and during the half hour treatment I have to have the toys and a constant stream of snacks (cashew nuts fed into his mouth singly, dried banana chips etc) AND a constant stream of distracting and silly chat. He likes the treatment but afterwards he busts out of the room and RUNS. So, what I'm saying is I can completely relate to your exasperation and sense of failure (or maybe I'm putting words into your mouth and that's just me!) as it's so hard to parent a child who is wild!
I'm seeing a therapist once a week now and am finding it massively helpful. She's experiences in early childhood trauma, so totally 'gets it' and I find she really boosts my confidence. I also do an hour's HARD exercise twice a week before breakfast. The two together seem to keep me on a more or less even keel most of the time, but not always, as you will have seen from my posts.
I'm saying this in the hope that it will make you feel less alone. But unfortunately unlike Don, Mayan and others I don't have any wise words as I am SO FAR from having cracked it myself!
Keep your chin up, KNOW that you're amazing and see if you can find some regular ways to let off steam. Also book a babysitter, regularly, so that you and DH can get some time to do something nice together. Also, I wonder what extra something can be put in place for your teenage daughter. It sounds as though, quietly, she is having quite a tough time with all this. I've heard about organisation for child carers, but I don't know if that would be appropriate or even wanted by her.
It always helps me to put things in writing and as I have said before I know, it wouldn't help to keep a journal as I need to be writing for someone(s) and bounce things off others. The boards have always been SO helpful for me. The other thing is that I can try to get my thoughts in some sort of order, whereas when talking I ramble (even more than in writing!)DH is very good at saying encouraging things and mostly I believe him or rather agree with him!
Therapy sounds wonderful and hard exercise...respect (as they say!)Your situation sound idyllic Daffin! Brilliant that Monkey Boy is sleeping better and not getting nightmares so often
DH and I have booked to go to the theatre in a couple of weeks! Also I have booked cleaners for once a week instead of fortnightly just until September to try to deal with some stuff in the house while they take care of spring cleaning (there's only so much they can do once a fortnight, especially as I don't do much in between!)
Also some good news. I foster cats and had 3 new ones this week (in pens in the garden I might add) but then a pregnant stray came in and I asked my 'boss' if I could look after her so one of my new cats has gone to another fosterer so I can have the mother to be and, soon, her kittens, to look after.
We are all very excited about this. And I do wonder if it will help Dash with 'where do babies come from?' and paternity and that sort of thing. He has not asked any questions yet.
Sending love from one MM (Marvellous Mum) to another Daffin. We all are! Can't think of an alliterative description for all the Dads!
Littly was tested for ADHD following her asd dx. She doesn't have it. She has lots of behaviours that can look like ADHD but actually are quite different to middlys. Hers are pretty low level fidgety, squirmy, can't sit still movements. Small movements. He does that as well but accompanied by climbing, jumping, door swinging, door frame hanging off, bannister sliding etc etc. His movements are big, impulsive, more deliberate. Hers are more unconscious movements. She does run, stomp and stamp around like an elephant. Nothing delicate about her. Both have sensory issues but I'm pretty sure that her fidgetiness is more rooted in sensory craving than ADHD. Hers are constant. His are much, much worse when meds wear off. It's like someone's flicked a switch and he becomes quite manic.
We also had littly tested for fragile x as she seemed to fit a lot of the behaviours. It is more common in boys - anyway she was clear. But maybe something else for you to think about?
They are both very different - even the difficulties that they share (social communication, sensory etc) are approached from different angles. Well they would, wouldn't they!! So he hates anyone invading his space, interprets it as bullying; she's constantly in your face. We now have a 7 seater car so that they can be separated! In fact I do try to keep them apart as much as possible. They even eat separately on a school night.
Life's never dull here!
Mum to three easy to place babies! DS, Bigly (13), DS, Middly (10) and DD, Littly (8) with a range of diagnoses!
Just an update to say...I had a supermarket delivery this week and have just done an order for next week
Also have asked someone to do some ironing and arranged for the cleaners who come once a fortnight to come once a week until September. This is because we have had to empty the totally empty the 'study' (dumping ground) so that it can have some damp treatment (it was once a coal shed, single skin brick wall). Almost the entire house is in chaos and its my job to get it sorted, so extra help will keep me sane I really am being ruthless with books. I have amassed a large collection of nature and animal books (mostly from charity shops) The children are not interested in them, it was what I thought they 'ought' to be interested in!! They love it when we see a heron or a deer or a red kite or whatever.....looking them up when we get home? NO!
Incy seems to have quite a lot of "anger" trapped in him and so most of his behaviour/play seems to be aggression based and you have to be careful when you are doing physical play with him that you regulate him before he gets explosive. At the moment I can generally sit him in the supermarket trolly "child chair" but on the odd occasion he has "pushed" the trolley I stand behind it to "control" it so that we are not knocking displays over. He is not too bad at church as we give him quiet toys to take and he spends quite a while drawing things on those draw and wipe it away type boards (not wipe boards but the ones that are like carbon paper and you pull a lever to clear it, he has 40 mins needing to be quiet in church before he goes into children's church and if he is getting fidgety I will either pick him up or stand him on the seat but he messes with my necklaces too and has damaged one of them. He also quite often tries to pull down my top to show my bra so I remove his hand and say "no". He likes to "mouth" things in an "oral sensory" way so the therapist suggested giving him a sports type bottle to drink from so he can "suck" on it like a dummy/baby bottle without being "made to look like a baby" and to provide baby teething toys at home in case he wants to chew on them for comfort. He did used to bite but school discipline seems to have stopped him on that one but I found out that he had spat at my dad (once I found that out it was an immediate "time out" and that stopped him thereafter).
He certainly feels like constant hard work and I feel like I spend my life saying "no you can't" or giving other instructions like "teeth time" "time to get dressed" "stop twirling about" etc. I recently went on an adoption advanced parenting course which highlighted a few things. One was to ignore as much bad or attention seeking behavior as possible (as long as they are not endangering themselves or others. Another was to use "time out" as sparingly as possible and focus as much as possible on "play" - making time to sit down and directly play with him but more in an observational way rather than me leading the play and saying "oh, you are picking up the red ball and using it to knock over the bricks, well done, what a good idea etc". Another was that we apparently give a "command" about every minute or two so that works out at a lot of "instruction" in a short time so do only expect 1/3rd compliance. Another was to give a reasonable amount of time for a command/instruction to be obeyed and repeat it a few times if needed. Another (already mentioned) was for every 1 negative you give to your child you need to give 4 positives so try to look at the positive opposite and say that instead. For eg Incy constantly kicks his feet and swings them under the table at tea time so instead of me saying "stop swinging your feet" I would say "I really like it when you sit still and eat your tea".
For the time being he is getting a tiny bit better in his behaviour but it is hard to feel "relaxed" around him at the moment.
Mummy to "Incy" (Age 11) who moved in aged 4 years 8 months November 2013 and to "Wincy" (Age 8) who moved in on 10/07/17.
Post by doubletrouble on Jun 11, 2014 23:16:14 GMT
Another few things I would add to your list of parenting techniques Spidress are, distraction - change the subject/item being played with or talked about and positivity is vital. I try and never say no or don't. I focus on something they are doing better - "oh look at how well DD is holding her fork Daddy - well done". If I am asked if we can do something or buy something I have no intention of doing at the moment I tend to say something like - well that's an idea but remember if we do/get that you would have to miss out on ..... or something along those likes but I always reply by making them think that at least I have taken their idea into account and haven't just dismissed it out of hand. If that makes sense.