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Post by donatella on May 19, 2014 7:36:35 GMT
I wanted to start something following on from Imps post about birth fathers.
We adopted three children over the course of five years so for a period of time adoption, homestudies, sws, courts etc figured regularly in our lives.
And of course we made sure the children knew their stories in an age appropriate way. As we all know we're supposed to do. It's never been something we've shied away from. Ds2 has had therapeutic life story work as well.
My kids are now 13, 10 and 8 and utterly indifferent to hearing anything adoption related. Ds1 is booooooored with it all. If I try to raise it as a topic I just get 'yes mum, I know!' He's far more interested in living life in the present rather than the past.
My daughter, at 8, has friends, she has brownies, dancing and trampolining. My middly is starting slowly to want to have friends. And as for ds1 - he went out at midday on Saturday, slept over at a friends, came home yesterday at 12.30, changed, went out and came home reluctantly at 6.30.
We're always being told that we have to tell - and I don't necessarily disagree - but I do sometimes wonder whether I've made a bigger deal of it than they feel it is? We're almost brainwashed into telling ........ I'm not suggesting we return to the old days of not disclosing but maybe sometimes we need to take our lead from the kids rather than the profs who think we should do it their way?
I'm assuming there will come a time - maybe when they're older and having their own children - that they'll be more interested but right now mine just aren't. And that makes me wonder whether I'm doing something wrong. Shouldn't they be interested? That's what we're led to believe.
Just wondering aloud really!
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Post by flutterby on May 19, 2014 7:49:44 GMT
I have not been on planet adoption as long as you have Dona, but I am already wondering whether all this "forced" lifestory work is not detrimental to our LOs. I am thinking along the lines, let them know they are adopted, what it means, we love them, then leave it.
Everyone keeps talking about how the most important thing to a successful adoption is attachment. How are the children (and we!) supposed to truly attach, if there is always this monster lurking in the background. We heap love upon them, therapeutic input and then go and say to them, ah, but don't forget, you are not really one of us.
I suppose it all depends on their ages as well when they were taken into care, but at the same time, then you keep reminding them of all the horrible things that happened to them.
I for one will use lifestory work sparingly. I want our daughter to be our daughter and lead as much of a normal life as is possible as a traumatised child. I will not brush things under the carpet, but I will take the lead from her in that I will only go into further details, when she is ready for it - which in my book is when she actively asks. That is presuming that she will feel comfortable enough in her own skin and with me to ask. If this does not happen then I will have to look at and re-evaluate.
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Post by homebird on May 19, 2014 8:09:46 GMT
I totally agree with flutterby. In the past I have read that we are supposed to talk about adoption every day. I do not agree. The child knows they are adopted so it will not be a shock to come back and bite them when they are older. To be constantly reminding them must surely make them feel insecure? They deserve to be allowed to get on with life. Our daughter knows who she is and knows why she and her siblings have been separated and are being brought up by different parents. In the early days we talked about it as a matter of fact, she has grown up with it and knows no difference.
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Post by milly on May 19, 2014 9:16:22 GMT
I am not so sure. I certainly don't talk about adoption every day. When my first dd was very young I would raise it from time to time because I didn't want her to grow up not knowing. But since then the conversations we have had have arisen naturally, at her instigation. And I guess because little dd hears her sister talk about it, she has sometimes asked me things too ( they are not related). I don't think I have ever sat down to tell dd2 anything - she has asked.
My dad was secretive about his past. It was simply because he had an unhappy childhood and wanted to "protect" us. I did glean a lot but I resented his approach as a child as it made me feel things were being withheld. And they weren't about me except insofar as his family is mine too. So I'd hate my children to feel they weren't told things. Its about trust and respect. After all it is their story, not mine. I just happen to know more at the moment than they do.
Older dd is affected by it a lot. But I think it's partly because she is "different" anyway - ADHD / attachment issues means she doesn't fit in with her peers that well, and never has, so being adopted is a way she can label that difference. And that does annoy me sometimes if she is being self pitying. But mostly she is quite upbeat and can go months without mentioning it.
Younger dd just gets on with life really and fits in well, so it's a different scenario. She really only brings things up if she is cheesed off with me and then it's mainly about fc, not birth family. (When I was cheesed off with my mum as a child, I would fantasize about having a real, much more exciting, mum elsewhere. I'd pretend my mum thought I didn't know but I was clever and had worked it out!! So I think a lot of what dd2 says is in the same vein.)
So no, I don't think we are wrong to tell - it is out there anyway, whatever we say. But I do think honesty is very important in a relationship and, even though it's tough at times, we have to make sure they understand. ( But admit I removed from dd 1 a photo book she had in her room telling her story, and I keep a lot well hidden - if she asks, that's fine but she went through a very self pitying phase a while back and focused it all on her bps)
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Post by sivier on May 19, 2014 9:32:23 GMT
I definitely don't think you are doing anything wrong Donatella, and agree about following kids' natural curiosity. Your children will surely ask more when they want to know, whatever the prompt might be.....?
I remember at a talk when in prep group, an adoptee said that her mum told her about her BM, but forgot to mention that BM couldn't come back and 'reclaim' the child...so as a child, the adoptee often felt worried when playing in the garden as she was concerned her BM might pop up over the fence and take her back. She obviously felt she couldn't ask about this possibility with her adoptive mum. That really stuck with me - how we get that basic balance right between information and reassurance.
I hope I'm creating an environment where AD is free to ask me anything, but where the fact of her BF is not always hovering over her. I'm with flutterby.... as long as my AD knows her basic story and knows she is safe, I will be led by her questions and meet her curiosity about further detail when it arises.
It is really hard to know what's best longer term. We are different, our children are different in what they want to know - and when. But I do feel the pressure can be on to over-inform them at a young age.
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Post by leo on May 19, 2014 10:39:19 GMT
It's so very different for each child - even within one family. Mine were older when they came home and had lots of memories of living with birth family and with various foster carers.
It's hard sometimes to help them sort out the muddle that all this brings. Hurricane this morning was talking about having got lost in a shop once and was convinced it was when he was with me. Things like this become natural ways of having a little bit of life story work (ie. When you're with Mummy in a shop Mummy always holds your hand or you stand next to Mummy don't you. It is easy for a child to wander off without realising but you know Mummy will never leave you alone in a shop. I know that there were times when people weren't so careful and didn't work so hard to keep you safe...)
Hurricane and Tsunami are at very different stages of wanting to talk about their experiences and this in itself can cause problems because Tsunami just isn't ready to 'hear' it when Hurricane blurts out something about their past. It's also hard because they have these very hardcore memories but they are both significantly emotionally and socially delayed so their understanding of it all is very toddler like and I have to remember that when we do talk about things.
It's not an everyday topic for us but it certainly gets talked about in the strangest of ways and in the oddest places sometimes. I often wonder as I walk out of the swimming pool changing rooms quite what the person in the next door cubicle may be thinking when they've overheard some strange things. (And before you all worry too much - I am very careful to only hold the private conversations behind closed doors.)
For us, at the moment, it's about taking the opportunity to gently explain or reinforce safety measures and the reasons for them being there whenever the opportunity arises. Hurricane's comment about somebody smoking yesterday then led to him asking why people made things like cigarettes and drugs if they weren't good for you (any suggestions on how I should have answered that one would be appreciated!) and this naturally led him into talking about his birth mother.
Maybe in a very strange and uncomfortable way, we are 'lucky' because my two don't need any of the facts explaining to them, they have clear and scary memories of that for themselves. For us it's more about how to help them understand and accept that wasn't how life should have been for them.
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Post by serrakunda on May 19, 2014 16:28:02 GMT
We talk about being adopted a lot, but more in terms of what it means for us. We have fairly regular 'sad' episodes when he talks about missing birth mum and that he wants to see her, I can say truthfully that I don't know where she is, then he blows her a magic kiss and he seems happy to move on, for the moment. Dad is harder because we have the contact. At the moment we are back to him wishing I would marry daddy and then life would be perfect. He does have some very confused ideas about them, he's convinced they were married when they in fact barely lived together for any time. I correct any obvious matters of fact but have only in the last week or so starting planting the idea in his head that they were responsible for what happened rather than it just being a sad thing. But I only talk to him in response to his questions, never bring it up, just go with him .
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Post by ham on May 19, 2014 16:50:35 GMT
As long as it is out there then no it does not need to be talked about every day.do we talk about being born every day.again one size does not fit all.my eldest 22 talks about tracing but not really interested in her as a person. Ds2 21 has no interested what so ever. Dd has more interest and just talk about it mainly when she raises it unless I know she is sad about it.
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Post by corkwing on May 19, 2014 17:57:58 GMT
Hi -
I've heard from a couple of adoptees that they think about their adoption WAY more than we parents do - and certainly way more than we mention. They've said that they wanted their parents to talk about it to reflect that and also to give them permission to talk about it themselves.
I've also heard from another adoptee that they really didn't want to think about it, discuss it, etc. They just wanted to get on with the life they were living now.
So my best guess is that every child is different; insisting that you talk about it every day isn't going to work for every child; and it's another of those pesty things where we have to be sensitive and all that sort of stuff.
Sometimes I wish there were a definitive manual that would tell you exactly what to say and do...
Love,
Corkwing
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Post by kstar on May 19, 2014 20:12:47 GMT
Is there also perhaps an element of normalising it by talking about it? So being open whenever they ask means they don't necessarily feel the need to ask because they know that door is open whenever they want it to be?
I suppose in a very crass comparison I'm sort of comparing it to the argument that children on the continent don't feel the need to binge drink because being around alcohol from a young age normalises it so it's no mystery?
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Post by lemonade on May 19, 2014 20:43:57 GMT
With my two AD ... Fizz always wanted to talk about being adopted non stop ... the why's and what happened, whereas Bubbles never wanted to talk about it and would hate it if Fizz brought the subject up. So it was difficult trying to meet both their needs.
Now the girls are in their 20's it's still very similar Fizz will openly chat about bm and bfam, but Bubbles still has a lot of hurt about bm. She does talk to her bro and family and seems quite close to them, although they haven't met. Bubbles and Fizz do try to talk to bm but bm is more interested in her own life, which the girls find difficult to understand.
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Post by moo on May 20, 2014 4:45:49 GMT
Great thread.... I'm with donnatella... I have dripped in from day one the A word along with an age appropriate explanation..... Very very low key & have encouraged Q's.... They astound me with their grasp & acceptance..... Both are of the opinion that stuff ( very bad stuff ) happened but that was then & not now...I have made it very clear that they can ask me anything & that I really want them to ask....
The clincher for them has been the lack of letterbox replies.... They both have said that it's 'boring' now & that coz bm can't be bothered to reply please will I stop talking about it.... skweek even asked the other day when we were talking about lettbox that he is grumpy with bm she can't be bothered to reply so please can we not do any more letters?!? Gobsmakked..... Was very fixed on fact that he does not want to participate so much so that baa is on the bandwagon now..... We have discussed it & they are determined so good news mummeeee will only need to write a few sentences from now on.... Will be telling them boys don't really want to participate but will try to make it friendly & sensitive... ( at least that way I will have complied & sent something so letterbox will have been done by me ) but I just bet SS will refuse to send it off on the grounds that it is too honest & not 'kind' enough to poor little bm feelings !?!?! I ask You?!?!?
So no I think all these so called profs opinion of how we must talk about it very very frequently is very wrong & it is something my children don't want & are actually quite confused by..... Hth......
xx. moo. Xx
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flora
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Post by flora on May 20, 2014 9:16:30 GMT
This is an interesing thread as the advice we received was to start introducing life story book early, however, AS who is just 3 is not in the slightest bit interested and it feels very unnatural to push the information. We talk about his foster family who he lived with from birth and we still see them fairly regularly - and we have some Todd Parr books and other adoption books, which he likes. However, he much prefers Topsy and Tim - although I still have the 70s Topsy and Tim where the family adopt baby Theodore, which he does like. However, I'll often realise we've gone days without mentioning anything adoption related as he just wants to pretend there are dinosaurs chasing us or that Daddy is a troll and we have to hide  . My gut feeling is that if he's not particularly interested or asking questions, I'm probably best not pushing the life story book. I don't think it is currently necessary to start pointing at the picture of his birth parents, who have not seen him since a few weeks old - and explaining that he grew in this ladies tummy. Of course I'll be open with this information and hopefully create an environment where he can ask questions, however, it also seems wrong to force this information on a currently happy child with no particular interest.
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Post by donatella on May 20, 2014 11:19:37 GMT
I've been doing this for a long time now and I started off telling when my children were babies. Drip feeding, talking about animals having babies, taking the opportunity to chat whenever we saw a pregnant woman etc. And we have photographs of their adoption days on the landing - where they can see them but not everyone who comes to the house. For a long time we had their lifestory books accessible for them to pull out and look at. They rarely did.
I can remember having one lengthy emotional conversation with DS1 when he was around 7 - at his instigation - and that seems to have dealt with his curiosity. Middly has lifestory work with his therapists at around 6/7. He made the choice shortly after that not to do lb. Until that point I'd written once a year - he wasn't aware. When I discussed it with him he was horrified that I'd told them anything. Lb coordinator not very happy but I'd told him at her suggestion. We relook at it every year but he's adamant they're not to know about him.
I do feel that sometimes I've pushed it when they neither needed to know nor wanted to know. But it takes some confidence to follow your instincts rather than to do what you think you're meant to do! Now the subject rarely comes up - ds1 has opted to keep his story to himself since he's been in comp, although all his babyhood friends know the new ones don't.
I think - for my kids - adoption isn't what defines them, it's not the most important thing in their lives, just a very small part of who they are. They're far more interested in their xboxes, scouts, brownies etc than they are about something which happened to them years ago. It's a part of them but, for now at least, a small and not terribly meaningful part. So now I no longer push it - I answer if they ask but figure we have an open enough relationship for them to ask anything, about anything!
Mind you, daddy did do a runner when ds1 asked him what masturbation was!! I think that was a bit too open for daddy!!
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Post by sockthing on May 20, 2014 12:20:08 GMT
Fascinating thread and very refreshing, as I remember when I joined the AUK boards about 2 years ago, there were several discussion in which many people felt it was imperative to be clear with your child as early as possible.
In some ways it might be harder if the child came to the adopters as babies as they have no conscious memories of being anywhere else. I have found it terribly difficult to handle with K. Kipper came to us at 10 months - so non-verbal
don't remember what we were advised by SS, I'm fact I have no recollection of it being discussed at all and am pretty sure we were given the impression we should be as open as possible as early as possible , but we're give no specific advice on how to handle that. It felt like a terribly scary thing as kipper came to us at 10 months and we were struggling a lot with attachment. He was of course non-verbal and I felt clueless about how to handle it as his life story book was way too advanced for him, and he probably would have just eaten it!!!
At 2 years I became aware that he was taking it for granted that he'd always been here....I had already been saying things like 'I'm glad we adopted you etc' but felt I had to be more specific and started telling him a little story about how he came to us, which he seemed to like but I could sense he wasn't really understanding that it was real.
So I used a natural opportunity to gently explain about FCs looking after him before he came to live mummy and daddy.....I will never forget the stricken look on his face and still feel dreadful about it now. It was clearly a bombshell even at that young age. It has remained a highly sensitive subject ever since and he is so sensitive to it that it is very hard to refer to the subject naturally.
I felt like I had told him too much too young and dumped a massive burden on him. I am undecided whether I should have been telling him more when he was younger and pre-verbal so that he just sort of assimilated it, , or whether I should have told him less and taken his lead more. I have every sympathy wit those who believe it can be detrimental to attachment and think it has made attachment wobbles worse here...of course I would never have kept it a secret, but maybe I should have carried on using the word 'adopted' and then waited for the questions.
Donatella, my first thought was that maybe it's no big deal to your children BECAUSE you. Have handled it the way you have. If you had been less forthcoming about it maybe it would be more worrying to them, or more 'interesting'.
Corkwing.....me too!!!!
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Post by justbserene11 on May 20, 2014 15:24:49 GMT
Yes I quite agree, what an interesting interesting thread.
Poppet is nearly three and came to us at 12 months.
When she was younger I used to show her photos of Previous FC and BM/BD. I realised some months later (after showing her these pictures) that sometime after showing her these, she would become angry, tearful etc. She didn't have such a reaction re her BM, but more so for her second set of FC, as she had lived with them longer than anyone else. I felt that by doing this, I was re traumatising her so I stopped. Instead, I began to read adoption related stories and say things like 'you wore the same colour top as daddy when we first met'.....so like you Don, I am trip feeding information in what I think is a more natural way and will anwser questions as and when they occur. I also agree with corkwing, when he said all adoptees are different and what is right for one will not necessarily right for another.
Since being placed with us, my mantra has always been that I want poppet to define IT as opposed to IT defining her. My hope is that I fill her with enough self esteem to have the confidence to ask, but also that when she hears (and comes to terms) with her story she look at all the positive and wonderful things that she has achieved in her life.
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Post by donatella on May 20, 2014 15:38:20 GMT
The longer I've been doing this the more shades of grey I see. My views on lots of things have changed over the years. I care much less about other peoples opinions of my parenting. Our children are all so different and I don't think one size fits all.
My almost 13 year old has the same freedoms as his peers. No special parenting - just your bog standard stuff. We argue, we disagree, I tell him off, he gets grounded. No big deal.
Even my two with an asd dx are poles apart. One needs a softer, gentler approach. My daughter needs very firm, strict, boundaried parenting. Not terribly therapeutic particularly - more direct! Am dreading her teenage years as I foresee her being a complete nightmare because of her poor social awareness.
Maybe we all need to learn to trust our instinct more??
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Post by wibbley on May 20, 2014 15:48:11 GMT
I've been 'telling' from day 1 too. Much easier with DS as he was just party to my conversations with DD (who remembered FC). It's currently no big deal, who they are curious about is FC, not BM at all. I am sure that will change as they get older though.
I had always been very open about them being adopted, but at 6yrs old DD asked me not to talk about it or tell anyone anymore. She had already had kids asking her questions at school and was not happy about it. For her, it's about feeling 'different' and those questions made her feel that way. So, I have tried to keep it private now to honor her wishes.
DD did go through a phase of asking lots of questions when younger, between 4-6yrs I would say, but she has always been pretty switched on. Now she is not interested in hearing anything, so I have dropped the subject until she asks again.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2014 13:48:25 GMT
Very interesting reading this thread. Like a lot of things, I think "telling" and how to do it has changed a lot over the years.
When I adopted 12 years ago it was all you must be as truthful as possible, you must be honest with your children and tell them everything etc etc, but now with internet and social media sites even SW's are now realising that what they advised 10 years ago, might have to change now, due to the immediacy of contact and BP's coming into our children's lives at such a young age. For those of you on the ASB you will already be familiar with my story of what has happened to myself and my DD's.
I am a prime example of someone who tried to do the right thing. I was 100% honest with my children telling them (age appropriately) everything I knew about their background, their family, their birth surname etc. Our story is very straightforward and is easier than most to explain, but now after recent events, I regret that I was so honest and have posted our story to forewarn others that sometimes honesty is not the best policy, and due to the internet I would now not do the same things again if I were adopting today.
Our children DO need to know they are adopted, that is very important, but they should also be allowed to have a childhood free of unwanted/unrequested contact from their BF's until they are of an age where THEY decide they want to know more and SW and well meaning profs should respect this - their rights to privacy, to be left alone to get on with their lives without interference from others telling them you need to know everything and now.
I grew up always knowing I was adopted, I don't remember ever not knowing about it, but it wasn't in my face everyday. I didn't have constant reminders that I wasn't born into my family. I was just a normal kid who sometimes wondered about my birth family, but most of the time I just got on with my life like a normal child and wasn't bothered about it one way or the other. I didn't feel any great desire to search for my other family and never really felt any great need to know. I was happy with my family and my other non related adopted siblings and I was content.
Ironically the only time I had to lie, was when I was going through the approval process, where well meaning, non adopted SW's pressurized me into lying and pretending that I was considering searching for my BP's. They, the "non adopted" professionals, simply could not accept that some adopted kids/adults are not bothered about searching, are happy with their adopted families and cannot be bothered looking for their other families, so I lied to get them off my back. I pretended I was going to look into it and I never did, still haven't to this day, because do you know what, I'm not bothered. That doesn't mean I wouldn't understand my adopted DD's wanting to know of course it doesn't, everyone is different as my own family shows. There were 4 of us, two of us found their BP's and two of us didn't bother to search - everyone is different and that's what bugged me about the SW's telling me I was abnormal because I wasn't bothering to look.
Sorry I've gone off on a tangent yet again.
As long as your child knows they are adopted, knows you are happy to answer their questions at any time, knows you are open to helping them search when they are old/mature enough to do so, then that is enough. They do not need SW telling them when the time is right, they do not need letters on their 18 birthday telling them Happy Birthday you are now 18 and legally entitled to see you file and contact your "other" family - Leave the adoptees alone, let them decide when the time is right for them be that 18, 25, 40 or never. They didn't chose to be adopted, they didn't chose to have do -gooders interfering in their lives telling them you need to know/do this by such and such an age. Give your adopted children the choice to chose for themselves when they feel old enough or ready for it. That's the least you can do as it's their life and their family.
Sorry if this offends anyone, but really adopted children spend their lives with everyone else making decisions for them, at least let them make the decision to search or not. It should be their choice and their choice alone and we adopters should support that choice and not allow anyone else to put pressure on our children to agree to anything before they are ready for it. I am fighting this very battle at the moment and it is causing so much hurt and angst to my family that I'm not sure if we are going to survive it intact.
By all means tell your children they are adopted, but don't turn it into being the most important thing about them and don't let any SW pressurize you into telling them too much too soon. You are your children's parents, you know them best and you should help them decide what's best for them until they are old enough to make their own decisions for themselves.
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Post by littlemisscheerful on May 21, 2014 21:47:36 GMT
I got a bit caught up in having to tell them their whole story so that if they read their files at 18, there won't be any surprises. ED wasn't ready to hear very much for a loooong time, - I was drip feeding age appropriate info, but eg age 7/8 she'd put her fingers in her ears if I mentioned adoption. At some point it dawned on me, that if she didn't want to listen, she is unlikely to wake upthe day after her 18th birthday and take herself down to SS to read her files! I chilled out a bit then. Having said that, I do try and update them as they get older - and the other month I used a slightly more grown up version of some words, and she commented that I hadn't told her that before - she accepted my explanation that as she gets older, I will tell her more.
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