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Post by chotimonkey on Mar 16, 2014 21:29:55 GMT
To your child?
I'd always thought not at all. But squirrel (31/2) is mixed race and was placed in all white FC from birth in a v white area. I'm mixed race, not the same country, but v similar in terms of physical looks ethnicity and culture and DH is mixed race with two white ethnicities. Squirrel and I look quite similar, hair colour, eye colour, skin tone, we both have long, straight hair. She picked me as her person straight to keep her safe and meet her needs as soon as she came home and two years in I feel attachment is building. She has always taken to the relatives on my side more quickly than DH side and I've always felt that she felt she physically belonged in the middle of this ethnically matched group even though she had never experienced it before.
She enjoys DH, but l'm v much her point of reference for security and we have a v special relationship... Recently she has started to add a list of our similarities as a part of her exploring our relationship, and it seems very important and significant to her that we are alike, I say that although someone else made her, we must have been sprinkled with the same pixies dust and we belong together and I'm so happy she's my wonderful DD I'm wondering how others have made sense of their physical similarities and differences with their LO's
Thanks CM
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Post by serrakunda on Mar 16, 2014 23:02:05 GMT
Interesting question, I'm white, family all white, simba is white British/African, so we look nothing like each other.
Very occasionally he says he wishes he was the same as me, we have a little chat and he moves on. Where we live is more ethnically diverse than his home town. I have been to birth dad's home, and one of his African aunties, and I have more African things, books, photos things I've collected from my travels, littered round my home than they do. In some ways he has more aspects to some parts of African culture than he would if he was still with birth family, because he has a full sibling who lives with dad who looks more European than Simba does and who I believe had struggled more with identity issues than Simba has.
As I'm single Simba doesn't really have that choice but at the moment I don't really feel it's been a significant issue that we don't look alike. The school I chose for his mainstream placement is a sea of black faces but the two particular friends he's made are white. I found several of the Todd Parr books helpful when talking about differences of all kinds. I'm not naive enough to think that his dual ethnicity won't ever be an issue but I suppose at the moment it's not his biggest need.
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Post by esty (archive) on Mar 16, 2014 23:18:50 GMT
Both my boys are blond and blue eyed and it's easily accepted they are brothers. In hair and eye colour they are not similar to me. However in many photos we are pulling identical facial expressions and look very similar.
Little Minnow is always pointing out any similarities with me. He has yet to do it to Big Fish.
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Post by moo on Mar 17, 2014 6:21:37 GMT
Great Thread choti.....
Aah so good to read your ethnicity stories.... Toko I always get such vivid ' pictures' in my head when you write about your girls... I have never been to Africa but your descriptions always seem to strike so many chords....
Love the mannerisms shared experiences etc that really glue you together as a family.... Really is the loving touch of life...
We are all white British.... But my boys really do have striking resemblance to me & they deffo love it..... Odd & wonderful all rolled into one.... baa always laments my belly too serrakunda wishes mummee's belly worked properly to grow him.... ( hasn't got that it's good she can't grow babies ).... skweek on the other hand is desperate to take mummeee to the Dr so it can be fixed & then maybe he will get a sister.!!!
But they do love that mummeee chose brothers & that most mummees can't choose weather they have a boy or girl baby this they do seem to understand bizarrely....
They talk often about eye colour... Ours are all very dark.... They always ask why my s-I-L has different coloured eyes.... Nannie their uncle are also very dark..... S-i-L eyes constantly has to be explained!!
While waiting for my boys to be ready to find me I had many conversations with my pet demon about mixed race match.... My l.a. were Very resistant!!! Very very odd coz they were constantly trying to match me with very very blonde haired blue eyed girls!!! I challenged the decision every time saying if this were a birth child I would Never have such fair child even with an albino man!!! They got picky grumpy & accusatory of me 'not working with the department '..... But when I turned it around about well I'm very dark if with a partner who is African I would easily have a mixed race child.... No they couldnot see my reasoning one bit!!! Me.....obviously could see theirs even less!!!!!.
serrakunda it does not surprise me one bit that you have so much of simba's heritage around you.... You are fab at choosing things that will have been pivotal in his heritage & encourage him to embrace it....
Xx. moo. Xx
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Post by justbserene11 on Mar 17, 2014 7:49:12 GMT
I think this is a very interesting thread.
Well, I am mixed race and DH is from the Middle East, Poppets ethnic mix is very very close to us. She has my hair, shares our skin tone and has DH's large eyes but resembles DH more than me. I think her expressions are definiately mine but her laugh is definiately DH's! At the moment due to being only 2 she hasn't asked questions yet, but it is good to read what she may ask/think (thanks!).
I have met a number of adopters and I would say the majority have some psychical resemblement, wether this is sharing facial expressions or even how they speak.
On another note, within my own family where we are blood related, we have a vast mix....my sister for instance has blonde hair and blue eyes the exact opposite to me!
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Post by loadsofbubs on Mar 17, 2014 8:49:04 GMT
intereting topic. my children identify more with their white british culture than their Chinese one, but they do take what they want from both! my daughter looks more Chinese than her older brother and looks more like her Chinese relis than does my BS but even my AS people say looks like me! but he certainly has mannerisms like mine. from the other side though, I have often wondered what it would be like to have white british children. I had potential for red haired and blonde haired children and do wonder sometimes what that would have like and have to admit to having an extra soft spot for some of my fosterlings, particularly the blonde bombshell, becoz they are so blonde! but then I have a soft spot for curly hair too. we always want what we don't have! 
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Post by chotimonkey on Mar 17, 2014 8:54:07 GMT
Moo haven't heard you refer to your pet demon before... Love this expression  )))
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 8:58:48 GMT
Oh Choti you have started a thread on one of my favourite topics (will try and not rabbit on too much)  I don’t think it is essential to have a resemblance to your adoptive family, but I think it helps in terms of privacy, i.e. you do not automatically have strangers looking at you and saying “oh, they are adopted” like you do in Tran racial adoptions, where your children’s status is blatantly obvious to every one at first glance. I’m adopted and it was always important to me to look like my parents and siblings as I always wanted to blend in and not attract attention. My parents had dark hair and my Dad had brown eyes whilst my Mum had blue eye. All four of us were adopted, (not genetically related), and myself and my brothers all had dark hair and brown eyes and resembled our parents, whilst my sister had blonde hair and blue eyes with sallow unblemished skin that tanned beautifully even if she sat in the shade (used to be soooo jealous ), while the 3 of us had typically Celtic freckled skin that burned if we didn’t take care. Sister was out and proud. Much more confident than I was, loved telling everyone “she was chosen”, loved attention and looking different, whereas I was less confident and just wanted to blend in and not attract attention, hated people knowing my business and valued my privacy only telling close friends that I was adopted. I have white friends who adopted two fully black children whilst living abroad. They cannot hide the fact that they are adopted, as it is obvious every time they are out and about. They are known as “the adopted kids” in their street  and that is my point. They don’t have a choice of who knows and who doesn’t. If I met Serrakunda and Simba, I would automatically assume that Simba was hers and that the dad was black. I wouldn’t even think to ask, is he adopted, I would just assume ex partner was black. Tokoloshe’s situation is different, as she said Oyster is very dark, so it is obvious that she is adopted, whereas Shrimp could be hers with a black partner. A white single adopter with a mixed race kid is very common, so does not raise the questions that a white couple with a mixed or black or Asian child does, not these days with so many inter racial relationships. I have another friend with 3 birth children. Friend is white, her DH is black and the eldest is quite dark skinned, middly is medium skinned and youngest is really fair skinned, almost white and they all have the same mum and dad. Mixed race children’s skin colour, and hair type, can vary so much even within the same family depending on what share of the genes they get from mum and dad. My DD’s are half siblings. EDD has quite dark skin, but has straight, slightly wavy, Caucasian hair. YDD has very light skin and afro hair and in my opinion they do not look alike at all, but some people think they do and have commented on how alike they are, despite not knowing they are adopted. EDD did have the mum of a friend at school pass a comment once, that I could not be her mother because DD’s skin was too dark. This enraged DD because BM is fully white British, even whiter than I am, and DD was really annoyed at this woman for doubting that I was her mum. Resemblance is interesting though. I have an adopter friend whose children all look like her. Her eldest DD is the spitting image of her, so much so that people don’t believe she is adopted. DD is autistic and tells everyone she is adopted, whether they want to know or not, and people just look at her and her mum and smile and think, why is she saying that, she is so obviously yours? Love this topic
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Post by twoplustwo on Mar 17, 2014 9:53:34 GMT
Stig and I are both white british but look nothing like each other. It's never been an issue for him. He and I have very similar personalities though so maybe that makes up for it.
I looked nothing like my mom as a child (I'm not adopted btw) and we are dissimilar in personality. Other kids used to ask if I was adopted. I remember being bitterly disappointed when I asked Mom and she said I wasn't. It sounded so romantic - LOL - ignorance is bliss :-D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 9:58:04 GMT
Oh I meant to add that our birth son looked nothing like either myself or exDH. He looked really like ex's best friend (who was white, same face shape and features ) which caused all of us much amusement as BS was definately mixed race and definately my ex's child as they shared the same genetic condition that ex is a carrier of. Ironically YDD looks very like my ex, people always commented on their resemblance, so adopted kids can look more like their adopted parents than their birth child can. 
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Post by sivier on Mar 17, 2014 10:04:55 GMT
I went to an adopters meet up recently, six couples from our prep group. Looking at us all grouped together, I was astounded by how close the physical matches were of each AC to the parents. A couple there had non-identical twins: one had similar colouring to the adoptive mum, the other looked like the dad!
For us it was not particularly an issue to have a child that looked like us (we lost out on a competitive match with a little boy with noticeably different hair colour and potential build to both me and DH) but I do wonder whether, all other things being equal and the placing SW having lots of potentially suitable adopters, that a physical match plays a bigger part than we're led to believe?
My LO has a completely different shaped face and body shape to me (you can see that she is the spit of BM in pics), but she hasn't yet put this together. But we have IDENTICAL eyes. Plus she is tiny, and I am 5' 2". People almost always comment on her size when they meet her/us and then say 'well you're petite too' - so that's useful. When people have learnt she's adopted, they often express great surprise so I think the matching eyes and being short foxes 'em!
Interesting topic and fascinating answers!
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Post by jollymummy on Mar 17, 2014 10:14:19 GMT
When they were little everyone said the girls looked like me - but I think that was because of their colouring which was similar to mine (when my hair was blonde). Everyone would say that "you can tell who his Dad is" about my son. He was blond with blue eyes and DH is dark haired with hazel eyes!! I could never see it myself but I got it so often..... But people always claim that AS has my eyes (they are very similar in colour, actually). We don't get it now, but mostly everyone we know knows they are adopted.
Bizarrely we were often asked "are they twins?". Although we don't know if they are identical, they look as though they could be - to the extent that even my husband couldn't tell them apart for ages!
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Post by twoplustwo on Mar 17, 2014 10:15:56 GMT
I do wonder whether, all other things being equal and the placing SW having lots of potentially suitable adopters, that a physical match plays a bigger part than we're led to believe? I think it does - a placing social worker has to be able to 'see the child' living with the 'chosen' parents. A physical match would make it easier to imagine the child in your family.
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Post by serrakunda on Mar 17, 2014 11:04:53 GMT
It was made very clear to me that if Simba's BM had been black and dad had been white I wouldnt have got him, as it is I do reflect his ethnic heritage. Though she is very blond and I have brown hair ( well I did once !) Also where we live makes a difference. there are loads dual heritage families where we live, we don't stand out at all, as JMK says peole will just assume that my ex is black and not give us a second look. Althouh as an aside, we have two universities here and a huge growth in numbers of Chinese students who do seem to find us interesting.
I think it would have been different if I'd lived in deepest Cornwall. When me SW went to interview one of my referrees in Cornwall, she turned it into a weekend break because of the distance and told me she had never felt so black.
So yes, SWs could 'see' Simba with me in that respect and that was important, and I would agree
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thespouses
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Post by thespouses on Mar 17, 2014 11:11:14 GMT
If I met Serrakunda and Simba, I would automatically assume that Simba was hers and that the dad was black. I wouldn’t even think to ask, is he adopted, I would just assume ex partner was black. Tokoloshe’s situation is different, as she said Oyster is very dark, so it is obvious that she is adopted, whereas Shrimp could be hers with a black partner. Our little boy has very similar colouring and hair to me (though I do have a very talented hairdresser). Hubby is also White but different colouring to me, so the chances were he'd look like one of us. As he was so young when placed, though, we had no idea what he was going to look like. I find it odd when White British families ask for a child that looks like them, when you are talking a child with dark/light hair rather than a child with very black versus mixed ethnicity. You have no idea what colouring a young child will have when older. The new half sibling we are hoping to adopt has a birth father of unknown ethnicity (birth mum is white and similar colouring, clearly, to us). She has not revealed the range of options (!) and even if she were to say after the baby is born that birth father was definitely very dark in colouring we could have no guarantee, likewise, that the new baby would turn out somewhere "in between", again colouring as children get older is very much a lottery. I doubt that, when an adult, the new baby will look so unlike us that it would be impossible that they were a child of one of us, but beyond that, we could be looking at anything at all. We are assuming that, should the new baby have very different colouring to us in babyhood people will click that the baby is adopted, but as most of them know little boy is adopted that's not exactly news. When they are both older, people meeting us for the first time may assume we're a blended family, and given little boy's similarity to me, they will probably assume both children are mine and neither are hubby's (as it's less likely no 1 would be his if no 2 wasn't). I'm looking forward to people who nosily say "oh so they don't have the same father" so I can say "yes, they do, I'm their mum and hubby is their dad". Interestingly we also live in an area with two universities and lots of overseas students, and also an increasing number of Chinese students (and their families). Lots of the family groups for students will be ideal groups for a new, not so white child to feel very much at home.
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Post by sockthing on Mar 17, 2014 20:43:12 GMT
Superficially kipper looks like he could be biologically mine, as he has a mad thick mop of uncontrollable hair, as have I, which is a similar colour, though he is just a shade darker. but DH and I both have blue eyes, and kipper has brown - a biological impossibility. Only one person has ever noticed this - a hairdresser who asked where he got his eyes from.
He has the most amazing dark eyes, the colour of conkers, and when he was a baby they had an almost oriental almond shape to them. They are stunning and I fell in love with them instantly. However all the babies biologically in my family are like fat blond cherubs from a renaissance painting (LOBs you'd love them!), with rolls of fat round chubby little thighs, and big blue eyes. kipper was lean slim,and long.
Im sure these visual biological differences made me slower to bond with him, I did feel very aware that he wasn't genetically mine, and his distinctive eyes kept reminding me of his BM.
We do joke with him about how like my hair his is, And we talk about who else has brown eyes in the family - DHs dad, for example. But I do wonder how he will feel about these differences as he gets older.
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Post by leo on Mar 17, 2014 20:43:46 GMT
My boys and I are all White British but that's where the similarities end for us!
They are angelic looking blonde and blue eyed, I am dark haired and dark eyed. It doesn't bother us - although Hurricane does like to point out other ways we are similar (both like food, both grumpy in the morning...) My boys fit perfectly into my wider family though - even have the exact hair colour of one of my nieces - and I am the one who looks adopted. (My entire family are blonde and blue eyed - caused me a few worries and issues growing up!)
A physical match never really bothered me actually - and obviously didn't bother the family finder either as I know there were several other families being considered for my two. Maybe it's part of them being older when they came or just that for me it's the little mannerisms and sayings that make them feel like me?
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Post by milly on Mar 17, 2014 21:55:38 GMT
We're all white but my girls, who are unrelated, look very different to each other and I always expect people to comment on this when one says the other is her sister - they don't but I can kind of see them thinking it! (Although dd1 often tells people they are both adopted anyway). Dh and I have similar colouring, though his eyes are green and mine are hazel. We both have dark hair (or I used to!). Dd2 is more like us re hair colour but has brown eyes. Dd1 is slightly fairer hair-wise but has blue eyes. But dd1 looks very like DH's sister and once when mil was looking after her as a toddler, someone came up and said she could clearly tell mil was grandma as they looked alike!
We were once in competition with another family for a child - in the end they were chosen as the father of the family had similar colouring to the child (we weren't impressed with this, needless to say)
The physical side of things affected me simply because dd2 is so physically different from dd1 - in size, skin type, body type etc as well as colouring - I found her quite difficult to bond with initially and one reason was because she DIDN'T look like dd1.
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Post by donatella on Mar 17, 2014 22:07:46 GMT
We have a bit of a mix really. Ds1 at 12 is already 3" taller than me, but has my skin colouring, dark hair and eyes. Dd, his half sib, is a blue eyed blonde who looks nothing like him nor any of us although she does have skin that tans easily. And I think may well be tall. As a baby she had white blonde curls - more than once were we asked where she got that hair!
Then we middly, unrelated by birth. Poor middly has pale skin which turns pink in the sun, and is 'petite' like me! Bless him! Does have mine and dhs brown eyes though.
No-one has commented on how like or unlike any of us are.
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Post by larsti on Mar 17, 2014 23:38:18 GMT
People are always commenting how alike Dash and his Dad are  We don't know what his BD looks like. And also how alike Dash and his big brother are (BS) . They all wear glasses which I think is one of the similarities people pick up on. The first visit from Dash's SW we learnt that Dash had long sight and astigmatism...same as DH! BS is very short sighted. We are all pale skinned while Dash gets a tan in the shade (as jmk said about her sister) and he has the most beautiful brown eyes. DH blue/grey and mine green/grey....so also physically impossible?
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Post by moo on Mar 18, 2014 6:59:38 GMT
Fantastic thread..... Just loving all the wonderful candid replies.....
toko i'm still tittering about the woman in the ladies toilets!!. 
I think mannerisms are very infectious.... baa particularly has many of mine ( along with the whackiest sense of humour.... skweek just rolls his eyes which I have to say I find hilarious )
My two deffo like the feeling of belonging down to our physical likenesses ( height, physique & eye & hair colour ) like all singlies it helps having the absent second ' assumed' factor in the creation process!!!
Keep 'em coming loving this thread....
xx. moo. Xx
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Post by peartree on Mar 18, 2014 9:27:56 GMT
Partridge wanted to belong
So he wanted to have the same eyes. Hair etc as my family
Thankfully my dad has the same colour eyes
They've got siblings who are different races so I'm unsure if race has impacted on this or not
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2014 10:30:43 GMT
I think mannerisms are very infectious.... baa particularly has many of mine ( along with the whackiest sense of humour.... skweek just rolls his eyes which I have to say I find hilarious )
Mannerisms and expressions are contagious within families and you do grow to sound more like each other as time goes on. When I was growing up, people could never tell my younger brother and I apart when we answered the phone. I now have this with my nephew and my brother - They sound identical on the phone and I always have to check which one I'm speaking to. Also I remember when I started going to pubs and met people who knew my older brother, they used to say are you "X's" sister and I was always surprised when they said you are exactly like him, same way of speaking, same sense of humour etc. Some of them didn't believe we were adopted and unrelated. Alternatively people used to say myself and my sister were nothing alike at all as we were like chalk and cheese in every possible way, not just looks, we never got on at all and still don't today. She lives in the US and I've not seen her for about 14 years. Having said all that I know loads of families where the birth siblings look NOTHING alike despite having the same parents, so I don't think it's unusual to see families where they all look different.
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Post by donatella on Mar 18, 2014 11:07:53 GMT
My sister and bil both have brown eyes. My niece has greeny grey eyes! She looks more like her father's sister. Can't see that either my niece nor nephew look anything like their parents!
My middly can be a mini me - the way he talks, the things he says - he open his mouth and I hear my words!
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Post by chotimonkey on Mar 18, 2014 11:48:20 GMT
Very interesting to hear so many different experiences...
Coincidentally I found a letter yesterday that was part of a therapeutic exercise I did in saying goodbye to the idea of a birth daughter... I wrote all about what she looked like Nd some of her characteristics...
If never thought about it again, but reading it... It's squirrel to a tee... Maybe that's part of what smoothed the wY for all our children... Something v biological in me clicked with squirrel and I could belong to her immediately, and she felt this... I wonder despite all my best efforts if we had adopted the blond boy who's CPR we also looked at, I would have felt the same so quickly.
Our three are full sibs and look so alike it's scary... I think it's helped them accept each other (as they were all placed separately) and I know for me when howler and george cane along I felt like I already loved then because they were so physically similar to squirrel
Does anyone have experience of how teens have felt about physical comparisons to adopted parents by others?
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Post by sooz on Mar 18, 2014 14:22:26 GMT
I remember after being matched and meeting fc for first time a few days before intros, ex and I went to the meeting and ds's sw was there and her manager.
Manager just looked at me, up and down, then did the same with ex, looked wide eyed and smiled, turned to sw and said 'I congratulate you, the likeness to the birth parents is astounding!'. Sw looked very pleased with herself and nodded as if to say 'I know!' . I think she was mentally counting her brownie points.
I'm still not sure how I feel about that. I know we were in a competitive match and very pleased to have been matched with ds, but it felt like after months and months of training, home studies, learning, agonising and then months and months of waiting, the only thing we had to offer was our looks.
Ds has similar colouring to me, but no one has ever said he looks like me.
I'm not bothered myself, but I do catch looks frm ds when people (usually my mother) comment to friends how their children look so much lke their dad, or mum. Her favourite comment lately is to say to ex's mum how her new granddaughter 'is the image of you, isn't she?'. I know ds has to get used to this stuff, and maybe I'm feeling more for him than he actually feels, but that bothers me.
Personality wise I think ds and I are very similar. I can see so much in him how I was as a kid, which helps when he's being particularly strong willed lol!!
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Post by sockthing on Mar 18, 2014 19:51:24 GMT
. Maybe that's part of what smoothed the wY for all our children.. Did you see a picture before you were matched then Choti? We we saw no pictures at all until after matching panel. When we were finally shown a picture, we weren't allowed to keep it, we just got a look and had to hand it back the next day. Interestingly, poor DH had a mini crisis after seeing the photo , he went off and sobbed for a while after the social worker left, and came back saying he didn't know if he could go ahead. He gave me quite a scare. It's not like the picture was awful ; it was the sudden reality of parenting "someone else's" child, after all those months of home study and then a 2 year wait to be matched. In the end, kipper looked nothing like the photo anyway - the photo was so out of date, it was taken at 4 months old, and we met K at nearly 11 months. And then DH and kipper fell madly in love straight away anyway!
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Post by happyone on Mar 18, 2014 23:04:44 GMT
This is so interesting to read x one of our girls is Asian me and my husband are white. having our first grandchild at 38 we have heard people say ohhhh they must have adopted him when we have him out and about rather rude!!! I'm a very proud grandma xxxxx
But my poor hubby got horrid looks if he went shopping with D and GS along the lines of "Thia bride" We promised him a tshirt with grandad on.... Miss right is the spit of my eldest BD in everyway I do belive this helped me get over her arrival at 2 years old after always fostering teens xx
All our children (10) obviously look different but they all look similar to each other it's very strange we have team blue and team brown for eyes after me and hubby
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Post by pingu on Mar 19, 2014 0:02:09 GMT
When sw asked about ethnicity we said that we were happy to adopt any ethnicity but as our area is very white, a child who was not might struggle a bit (we are both white as well) Ds1 and hubby however are darker haired while ds2 and I are paler of hair and skin and classic colouring for round here. Indeed when I saw an old photo of my sister next to one of ds2 they really did look genetically related! Given the area ds2 originates is the same part of the country as our paternal great grandparents it isn't entirely impossible and I like to think he might be !! not that it really matters but it feels a nice extra possible link. Certainly the similarities in our family appearances make casual acquaintance interactions easier as they don't realise the children are adopted unless we say so, (and we do say if it arises because all of us are proud of being in this family.)
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Post by chotimonkey on Mar 19, 2014 18:59:31 GMT
Sockthing we saw a pic of squirrel because she was in cww, but we saw 3 CPRs straight after matching including hers and they all had photos and the other two sws sent additional pics, our sw felt this was tactical sw ploy to get us to move away from squirrel and to the other children.
When squirrels ff first met is she brought a DVD and then when FC visited after we were officially linked they brought the DVD back for us to keep and the FC brought more pics of squirrel and baby howler because she had arrived by then. We have always had tonnes of pics of howler and george and regular contact before placement so it felt easier as we were dealing with logistics and little ones distress not but not dealing with the stranger in the house feeling some experience, george had been to our house before matching panel... Soooo hard not to just keep him then!!
But pics played quite a role in our ff choosing us... We had a head and shoulders casual selfie just after we had got engaged where we were really laughing and It was on our pen pic and she said she wasn't going to read any other form fs because she had had over 50 responses to squirrels cww profile, but we smiled our way into her interest, she read our cpr and when she came to see us we showed her one if my baby pics which was exactly the same pose, finger in mouth cuddling a dolly and the physical likeliness was uncanny... There obv was a lot more to it then her photo for us and ours for the sw but they def helped
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