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Post by toomuchlaundry on Mar 1, 2014 9:40:27 GMT
I guess this is my simple question. How do you do it? I know the reasons behind why Little Man (5 1/2) hurts, and I try to parent therapeutically, and can do after some cooling off time, but I find it very hard not to get very cross in the moment, as, I guess, my own basic fight/flight/freeze reaction kicks in, when he hurts me. It's often very unexpected, and can be biting, pinching, hitting, kicking, you name it. He does a lot of growling/spitting too, actually, having a (very wet!) 'raspberry' blown in my face sets me off too!
Also, any ways I can learn 'safe holding'? So when he's in an aggressive/destructive rage, I can keep him/me/everyone else safe without causing further hurt?
Thanks all, it's great to have somewhere where I can ask these questions!
TML
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Post by kizim on Mar 1, 2014 10:03:45 GMT
İ did not suffer like this however both my girls did go thru majör tantrum phases when they were younger and occasionally still do! İ used to get them onto the bed or throw down a quilt and literally cover their body with mine - making sure their limbs were restricted from damaging me too much and my face averted. İ would talk camlyusing a mantra of some sort...acknowledge their anger....make soothing noises. The fit would peak and then subside in to sobs and they would let me hug them.
Both would sometimes ask to be held when they got aangry...and they speak fondly of it now.
Like you. İ react first and rereact later too , but this helped me to stay calm too.
Another option İ used was REWİND. İf one of them transgressed in some way...they could call Rewind! which meant they got to rewind and replay the action they had taken and replace it with more appropriate behaviour.
They knew they would not be in any trouble as there were no consequences and they felt in control...but the rule was you could not rewind violent or destructive actions.
İm sure more people will be up and about soon WHO can share their experiences toomuchlaundry
Hugs ((()))
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bigredbus
New Member
Married Adopter
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Post by bigredbus on Mar 1, 2014 10:04:16 GMT
I have to detach myself from the situation.. Go into 'the zone.' calm voice, calm breathing.
years of doing it, holding them while they are screeching and kicking and biting - you learn to slow yourself down and control your own anger/ emotional response. If you do so, the length of the rage can be reduced considerably, where as if you are hyped up, they feed off this emotion.
you get good at doing it, but it takes so much out of you. It makes you exhausted and worn down till the next time, but you have to do it over and over.
it's really hard but try and detach yourself from it. I try and remember that the rage is not really about saying "no" to another biscuit etc... It's usually a build up of emotion over the day or because they can't handle not being in control.
on many a bad day, i do take it very personally - we are only human and it really hurts emotionally. I try after a bad day to look back and see what it really is about... Remember the hurts she has had and try to remember that this is what has really caused todays episode.
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Post by donatella on Mar 1, 2014 10:12:26 GMT
With great difficulty and something I often didn't manage. Still don't but we no longer get the violence.
My son's teacher at the worst time was a team teach trainer she he shower me how to hold middly. Tbh though all it seemed to do was make a bad situation worse. He felt even more threatened and became more violent.
His initial reaction was always to run. The fight came if his run was thwarted so when safe we let him run. At home his refuge was initially under the dining room table. He could be there for hours but would eventually stop growling and spitting like a wild animal and become calmer. Then we could get close and talk it through. Later his bottom bunk became his refuge - we covered it with a blanket, he had his cuddlies etc. We also taught him about emotions as he wasn't able to recognise anxiety, happy, sad, excited etc. In school his teacher Would take him out into the yard and literally have him run it off. But he is in a special school so that was achievable.
does your lo have any diagnosis? My son was dx adhd at 6 and medicated. Made a big difference as did the right school which lowered his anxiety and therapeutic input. All happened at the same time.
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Post by wibbley on Mar 1, 2014 10:14:38 GMT
With our DS the only thing that works is immediately turning away from him & leaving the room. If there are few people in the room, we all leave (turning tv off on the way if it is on). He HATES it but it certainly has worked. This is for general deliberate acting out against other behaviours. If he is having a meltdown (he is ASD) he is in a different zone & there's not much anyone can do, if I walked away at that point he would follow. I can ignore behaviours as I know my reaction inflames the situation, but when we are having a bad day & there is a lot of shoving etc I do sometimes loose it too  Holding has been necessary on occasions (like meltdowns at the side of the road), but it makes him more angry & upset so is not something I would do lightly. |
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Post by milly on Mar 1, 2014 10:49:40 GMT
When dd2 was a toddler I tried a hold I had read about somewhere. Basically sat behind her with her back to my chest and hold opposite wrists so her,arms wrapped around her body. Then I would gently hold my legs over hers (not sure if that was an official part of it or my variation!). Anyway it was effective in preventing her from hurting me but it enraged her so I soon abandoned it.
She is 8 now and my latest tactic, which is working at the moment, is to stop talking to her for 5 mins. But she doesn't hurt me anymore - its when she is rude or non compliant or shouting because she can't get her way. Don't know if it would work for a full blown meltdown which she only has occasionally - but it might because she chooses to escalate things quite often as a sort of bullying tactic. I don't necessarily leave her as she will start throwing things if I do that sometimes. The other day I just sat on her bed and read my book - it was meant to be her storytime but she was being nasty. Amazingly it worked really well. I am not good at not speaking as it isn't in my nature so have to really concentrate to make myself keep from answering her!
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Post by milly on Mar 1, 2014 10:52:19 GMT
PS I find the discipline of not speaking,helps me detach and remain calm. When I don't manage it I find myself saying and doing things I know aren't helpful.
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Post by daffin on Mar 1, 2014 10:58:03 GMT
There's nothing like DS lashing out at me for eroding my confidence as a parent. We've just had a good week but mostly he lashes out daily - usually around a control issue. Either I am trying to get him to do something he doesn't want to do, or I'm trying to get him to stop doing something he did.
I've found verbalising helps me stay calm "I can see you're feeling really cross. You really don't want to put your coat on. It's OK to be cross but it's not OK to hit. Use your words."
Sometimes I just go and sit down with the newspaper "I can see you're feeling too cross to put your coat on. I'm going to read the paper. Let me know when you're ready to go to nursery."
Obviously that would need adjusting for an older child.
I have also found The Explosive Child by Ross Green (I think) good. It encourages you to spot patterns, identify triggers for priority action and then work through them one by one with your child, getting them to suggest solutions. This worked brilliantly for solving repeated melt downs about teeth cleaning but less well about some other things - I think because we haven't correctly identified the trigger.
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Post by ceci on Mar 1, 2014 12:55:57 GMT
My dd hitting me was a huge trigger for me, and it was very hard not to react poorly!!! The only thing was to remove myself immediately and try to calm down. Sometimes I did and sometimes not! That was when she was about 6/7 years old. It was very hard when she was younger and just reacting to her feelings because she couldn't think it through before or afterwards and the fall-out from me reacting didn't help any of us.
As she's grown up a bit, if I catch her in time, I can make a quick comment that will often make a difference between her hitting or running off. If it's too late I face her, grab her wrists and lower myself to her level and just say 'No, not acceptable.' She'll wriggle about but wants to run away then so I let her go and talk after.
It's really, really hard and I thought it would never stop, but it has reduced significantly. Not sure if that's with age (she's now 9) or me working harder to avoid triggers.
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Post by moo on Mar 1, 2014 16:58:01 GMT
Some great tips already....
Luckily now they are older not so many full meltdowns.... I adopt the leaving the room / vicinity approach.... Works very well with baa.... skweek however is just about to hit terrible 7's.... He is a different kettle of fish altogether!!!
Used the duvet & sofa routine often when they were tiny.... Worked well
Good Luck.... Being therapeutic is soo tuff when being kicked & bitten.....
xx. moo. Xx
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Post by peartree on Mar 1, 2014 21:14:41 GMT
I'm not wonderful at this but really did find doing the same pattern of things helped each time
You get good at spotting patterns of behaviour do before compete screaming and wild attack kicks in totally try some of this:
Then the raging lessened
We even used a sort of script
Blossom- AAAAAAAGH!
Me- you do need to eat something for breakfast and shreddies are your favourites
Blossom- nooooooo! (Throws box)
Me move the other side of sink and pretend to wash up 'I see you're all angry- tell your trampette how cross you are'
Blossom- '@&?,:,?:;?:£'l ! Off witch- I hate you!
Me- 'just as well I love you enough for both of us. Now finish off the wobbler as I'm going to sit in the other room with your fidget box next to me'
The main thing when they're being aggressive is to get a distance between you.
Mr pt is good at humour so getting going on the funky chicken impression breaks the tension....
But I have got cross and actually defending yourself and learning defence is not a bad thing. They are little now but as time goes on you do need to keep safe when they've lost it without you being able to intervene as above.
When they're totAlly wild no point in talking
Turning down the lights & switching on the vanilla plug In as you go out the room may buy shorter wobbler times
Keep safe. Book on a self defence course
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Post by littlemisscheerful on Mar 1, 2014 22:19:35 GMT
Tricky. I was usually ok if I saw it coming, but when it comes out of nowhere I have been less than therapeutic. So, for me, the helpful things were recognising the triggers and patterns of behaviour so that I can 'be in the zone'.
I also use a script something like 'i see you're cross, and that's ok, but you can't hurt me or yourself'.
I used to restrain using a method similar to Milly describes. She didn't particularly like it but i would say that i needed to keep her and me safe (if i released her hands she would slap and pinch herself really hard).
Talking to her helped, - usually nonsense stories that i would make up or I'd tell her stories about when the dogs did something funny.
Grabbing 5 mins for a cuppa after an episode to help me rebalance was helpful too.
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Post by nzhb on Mar 2, 2014 14:11:49 GMT
I am not sure how you all manage it
We have reached another plane yesterday.
For the 1st time ever, my husband had to restrain our daughter , who was out of control & threatening to kill me. She is 11.
We have been to Camhs 4 months ago & weepily described our daughters constant berating/goading of me. The stealing from me, the lies, the level of control, the disrespectfullness to us, the oppositional behaviour & now the rages.
Nothing has been done.
We have had a multidisiplinary meeting - still no action.
Camhs have said we can be placed on a list for family therapy, but the list is long.
They have acknowledged we need a different therapy - they can't provide it as no funding.
No - on available to do life story work - Camhs say not their remit Adoption support have no one special trained so far.
Today I have rung the emergency duty team as we are at outs wits end.
We have now given our daughter ALL the life story letters/photos etc which we normally keep in a special box that she can access, & told her she can keep them in her room & that she is responsible for keeping them safe.
It can't make things any worse.
We have to devolve some responsibility to her for her actions now.
Yesterday she clearly told us the reason she takes things from me is that she knows it irritates me & then she gets 'her revenge'.
New territory - yes
Where do we go from here?
We have no idea.
Well done all of you who ARE holding it together.
We are too tired to try much longer.
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Post by daffin on Mar 2, 2014 21:42:11 GMT
nzhb, I've PM'd you.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 5:36:19 GMT
nzhb - will pm you too. xx
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Post by peartree on Mar 3, 2014 8:14:30 GMT
Nah A lot can be and SHOULD be being done
Get Camhs to write down they can't help you
In the meantime get yourself booked into family futures for their FREE initial meeting and get their help
There are other places around that help
Stepping stones in Cardiff
Crysallis associates
And the wonderful catchpoint in Bristol
Also PAC in London
There's hope
This MUST be tried
My own blossom moved from home when she was 12. She's now 16 and very much part of our family even though she can't live at home. Sometimes adoption and living in the family is just too hard
Sending support xx
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Post by littlemisscheerful on Mar 3, 2014 8:21:50 GMT
Has she been assessed for anything else? ADHD/ASD - it's not always just adoption related.
My ed was aggressive, much improved now (13). A therapist I spoke with was in favour of meds to really help with aggresive behaviour. It wasn't my first option, and we haven't gone down that route - but certainly I would consider it if she spiked again.
I did get community police to come and talk to her - I was concerned that she saw it as if she could do what she liked to me, and that there was nothing I could do. He was pretty full on (had a very sad story about his own ASD daughter). It had a big impact.
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Post by shadow on Mar 3, 2014 8:29:50 GMT
NZHB and anyone - be VERY careful about restraining - I had to do it for years with shadette - "safeholding" as she was so unsafe when rampaging - I made sure all profs were aware and did the teamteach training -it could get misinterpreted and children / young people can make allegations
I would call the police - maybe not 999 but 101 or the equivalent in England if this happens again - they are usually good and seem to have a better idea of the situation than a lot of other profs - and their reports tend to make people listen and take things seriously
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Post by nzhb on Mar 3, 2014 21:43:53 GMT
Thank you everyone
My DD has adhd /sensory probs & other health difficulties, so not straight forward.
I understand re police - BUT my hubby is a serving officer & we are only too aware of where this could end
Have contacted CAMHS & PASW = meetings due this week.Have had a card of apology placed under my pillow for when I came in from work - on late shifts for a few days - probably a good idea to give some distance.
Still feeling v exhausted by it all.
Will look for private therapy - no other options really
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Post by damson on Mar 4, 2014 19:34:47 GMT
I too am uneasy about the restraining. Just one allegation can lead to a CP investigation, and that can make your DHs job impossible, never mind how appalling you will both feel. Private therapy is very expensive indeed, and at a very basic level, you are substituting for what your LA should pay. Stick to your guns, and don't be fobbed off with nice words. This is not going to spontaneously get nicer as your DD gets older. She will be bigger, angrier and even more complex. Fortitude! Look at it like social care managers do - consider the cost of a foster placement, and then point out that it would be so much cheaper for them to fund therapy.  |
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Post by nzhb on Mar 9, 2014 7:04:23 GMT
Thank you for all your helpful words.
However, despite CAMHS & Adoption Support coming to visit us this week,things have gone from bad to worse.
Yesterday the owner of my daughters drama club contacted me to inform me that my daughter had been hounding an older boy with sexually explicit messages & 'bothering' him. He was going to leave the club as was so upset and anxious about it but told the owners, who have now taken action.
My daughter has been expelled. I think they will involve SS due to the nature of the language.
I have reported ourselves to SS again for the second weekend in a row, in order to protect ourselves from allegations.
We have no idea where this has come from, but it isn't this 1st time she has done this with a boy.
She has no phone so must have been using someone else's phone to text him & I don't know how she got his number. Our computer is under lock & key at home & she has no access as she did set up a Face Book account & we know she has sent some messages that are inappropriate, so we have banned the computer.
We are now left with NO social activities for our daughter - she has been asked to leave dancing, Girl Guides & now drama all in the space of the last 18/12.
I feel suffocated by her & don't know what to do next.
Please don;t remind me of PACE - I have NO emotional leeway to employ anything.
I just want her to go away. We are being crucified by her birth families failings.
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Post by monkey on Mar 9, 2014 21:43:50 GMT
Oh dear nzhb, it sounds like you are really at the end of your tether.
I'm sorry that you haven't had any replies to your last post. I'm sure that lots of people on here can empathise.
I don't have any advice unfortunately but am sending you a big hug.
MMx
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Post by peartree on Mar 9, 2014 21:55:45 GMT
Then you've reached the point where you need urgent respite
Then you can regroup and think
I really do understand how personal all this feels but underneath it all is a very distressed 12 yr old doing frankly awful things who needs a great number of helps
Ring the duty team
Back it up with emails and request an urgent placement support meeting
I've known families here saying they have taken a packed bag to the meeting and suddenly they've acted
Others I know wrote to mps and elected members and cc'd everyone about this meeting before and that things are serious now with expulsion and threat- you need a meeting with the head of service this week...
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Post by pluto on Mar 9, 2014 22:15:46 GMT
Have you considered sending her to a boarding school?
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Post by moo on Mar 10, 2014 6:23:18 GMT
So sorry to read your posts.... You sound completely done in..... Aggree with p.t. & Pluto...... Get your meeting pack the bag & demand respite.... Sounds easy but I know it's not......
Please try & protect yourselves..... Hugs {{}}
Xx. moo. Xx
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Post by daffin on Mar 10, 2014 9:13:25 GMT
I agree with the others. You need and deserve urgent help. It really is not fair that SSs etc etc do not step up and support families properly when under this kind of pressure. I get the impression that their 'working model' is one of questioning adoptive parent's capacities to parent and then make 'useful' (AKA bleeding obvious OF COURSE I've tried that) suggestions before disappearing for another 3 months.
Get the meeting. Get the respite. Get some help for yourself.
I found talking to the head psychologist at Family Futures (Alan) very helpful. He suggested a technique I never would have thought of but more importantly for me, he listened and took me seriously. He asked sensible, sensitive questions and didn't say anything half ar*ed! In other words, he's been around the block working with traumatised children and doesn't underestimate the impact of the trauma on either their behaviour or their families. My telephone consultation was free - and immediate. I have also spoken to my GP, for counselling for me. I feel I need someone to vent to. I'm not sure how well that will work, as of course the therapist won't be experienced in the world of adoption. Well, and I will be tempted to poke in the eye anyone who puts their head one one side and says 'Yes, but how does that make you FEEL.'
Good luck over the next few days. Let us know how things are going.
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Post by nzhb on Mar 10, 2014 16:39:40 GMT
I am feeling VERY ashamed of what I wrote re wanting my DD to go away. That isn't what I really want, nor what is right for her. I think it reflects my level of exhaustion & upset when I posted it.
In future I must 'walk around the block' before sending entries. I don't know why I did it.
Yes, I am still emotionally exhausted, but the most important thing is how my DD is feeling right now & getting the correct level of help for her.
Her world is imploding - my world is bigger & stronger & should take more time to crumble.
Beleive you me, I AM pushing.
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Post by serrakunda on Mar 10, 2014 17:19:35 GMT
Don't feel ashamed nzhb, I think people understand the place of despair that came from. This is a safe place where you can say what you can't say elsewhere. You are entitled to your feelings and it's obvious what a dreadful situation you are all in, better to say it here and get it out then have it blurt out somewhere it could be misunderstood
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Post by sooz on Mar 10, 2014 18:41:44 GMT
Don't ever feel ashamed!! Let it out if it helps. Sending hugs xxx
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Post by nzhb on Mar 16, 2014 21:39:20 GMT
Now I am not sure re the report about my daughter & the drama club.
Another parent has told me how her daughter overheard said boy saying he wanted to get my DD into trouble. We have also found very offensive messages on FB towards my daughter & it is clear he doesn't like her. Why we aren't sure, but she may have been pestering him. Can't find an offensive mssgs from her to him tho.
Have banned the computer now. Somehow she had found her way into FB - the computer is now under lock & key. It did have parental controls.
This is where it gets v difficult. We adoptive parents know our kids can live in fastasy land, be good at telling lies, covering up their tracks etc etc.
I have spoken with drama teacher again - who admits she hasn't seen or heard anything re the events & is only going on what the boy told her.
She isn't interested in hearing about the FB stuff as it didn't happen on her premises.
( Fair enough)
I can't let my daughter back there anyway. It isn't safe.
Whether boys story is true & so we have a big problem to deal with - daughter can't keep herself safe. Or it is 50;50 & friendship has broken down - not safe for her to return as who nows what may ensue. Or he is making the whole thing up as he truly doesn't like her - in case she has been manipulated by an older boy and can't be safe from him.
I have social services involved anyway, due to my child's increasing vulnerability. They feel she is a Child in Need & we are waiting to see what SS can offer in way of support.
I am going to write to drama club asking for written statement of what happened, a copy of their policies on safguarding & equality/diversity & their registration certs. I have an uneasy feeling that some of these may be lacking......
At the very least I think we should have come in & both sides of story considered & then a way forward worked out.
Once again my child is a victim - either from others, or by her own actions.
I can;'t keep her safe when she isn't with me.
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